Bits of conversation for wider exposure

[liv]

Some unanswered questions from conversations recently:

1. Is there such a thing as a lesbian icon?
   
   There were a group of mostly straight or at least non-scene women out with a gay man, and we were trying to get him to explain the gay icon thing. Like, why are most gay icons straight women, such as Cher, Madonna, Judy Garland and so on, and not, you know, actual gay men? His theory was that a gay icon needs to be flamboyant and overtly sexual towards men, but preferably projecting a happy, confident image, as opposed to the angst and emo typical of the few male artists who actually talk directly about gay themes.
   
   Somebody asked, what about lesbians, are there any lesbian icons? I could only think of celebrities who are either well known to be lesbians such as Ellen de Generes, or actresses who are known for lesbian roles, such as Alyson Hannigan. But they are not really icons in quite the same way, I think. I did end up offering to make a playlist of lesbian themed music, though, so any suggestions welcome.
   
   
2. How do they make holy water?
   
   This is from the picnic. Of course we all know that it requires a priest who has to bless the water. But how exactly does it work practically? Does the priest bless a large volume of water and then divide it up into lots of little bottles, each of which is holy? Can the holy water be diluted with normal water, and does that make the mixture holy or unholy? Or does the priest have to bless exactly this particular water in this particular vessel? Is there a maximum amount that the priest can bless at any one time? Does the holiness stick to the water forever, or does it have to be water that was blessed recently? Is it different for Catholics and Protestants?
   
   I hope these questions aren't irreverent; we really do want to know. But they might the kind of questions that only make sense in a conversation between Jews and geeks, and completely miss the point of how Christian theology works.

Why, yes, I am supposed to be working. I'm hoping that interesting speculation on these questions will provide a minor distraction, but not enough of one to keep me from getting any work done at all...

In other news, I have reorganized my flist a bit. I hope this won't lead to drama; I promise that I haven't removed anyone due to being offended by them or thinking badly of them. It's just that that sociological theory that says people can only really handle being connected to a community of about a hundred people seems to apply to LJ as well, at least for me. I had twice that number, and I came to the point where I just had to admit that there were some people I wasn't getting to know, however much I admired them. Of course, by removing a few dozen of the people I interact with least, I haven't actually made my reading much easier to manage. But just to make it absolutely clear, you're entirely welcome to keep reading if you find my journal interesting, and indeed if we start getting into conversations I'll probably add you back. Equally, if you don't have time to follow me I am not going to take offence.

My ideal is to have around 80 to 100 friends and carefully read every word they write and comment and join in discussions. But to get to that level would require cutting people I can't bear to do without, and I can't help myself meeting new shiny people and wanting to add them too, so I'm still really over capacity. *sigh*

Comments

[emperor]

A friend of mine describes preparing for a service, and going "argh, we need some holy water!", to have his wife gently remind him that since he had recently been ordained priest, he could make some himself ;-)

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

Is there such a thing as a lesbian icon?

Xena, Warrior Princess?

[liv]

Ooh. Good suggestion, thank you!

holy water

[isolani.livejournal.com]

"This is from the picnic. Of course we all know that it requires a priest who has to bless the water. But how exactly does it work practically? Does the priest bless a large volume of water and then divide it up into lots of little bottles, each of which is holy? Can the holy water be diluted with normal water, and does that make the mixture holy or unholy? Or does the priest have to bless exactly this particular water in this particular vessel? Is there a maximum amount that the priest can bless at any one time? Does the holiness stick to the water forever, or does it have to be water that was blessed recently? Is it different for Catholics and Protestants?"

Holy water is water that - through being blessed - is set apart for a religious purpose. A priest can bless holy water for a single occassion (i.e. the rite of Asperges (sprinkling, in lieu of the Confiteor (the general confession of sin) before Mass, or a Baptism). A priest can also bless a larger volume of water, contained in a plastic tank, say and one can help oneself to it (bring your own little bottle)
In theory I suppose a priest could bless a limitless amount of water, but because it must be set apart for a holy purpose this implies a priest would only bless an amount of water that one could actually use for a purpose. I don`t think there is a maximum volume set anywhere in either holy tradition or canon law, but common sense applies.
As far as mixtures are concerned, yes, as long as the added 'normal' water does not exceed the volume of originally blessed water.
How long does the Holiness stick? I suppose for as long as the water is still water and not fetid moldy gooie stuff. Or, more strictly, as long as the water can still be used for a holy purpose, and it generally can`t if it's skanky.

anyway, loads more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water

I don`t think Protestants actually use Holy Water at all. Except Anglicans and their kind of funny as far as protestants go.

holy water

[liv]

Ooh, thank you! I should have thought of Wikipedia. But ok, there actually are rules about diluting. And the thing where it has to be set aside for a purpose means there can't be any case where the priest just makes a big batch for whenever it happens to be needed. And it stays holy until it gets skanky, also makes sense. I feel educated!

Good point about real Protestants. I'd forgotten about proper European Lutherans, I'm so used to Anglicans who are basically Catholics except not listening to the Pope.

[taimatsu]

Re. lesbian-themed music, I am working on a playlist just like this. Do not leave out Melissa Etheridge; many of her songs are very appropriate.

[ewx.livejournal.com]

I move people who talk more than I find them interesting to a separate filter full of photo communities, RSS feeds and whatnot and read it about once a day. People who don't have much to say can stay on my default view whether or not I find them especially interesting when they do have something to add.

Re: holy water

[isolani.livejournal.com]

ho! you CAN make a big batch to keep around , for some time at least , to serve as 'mutli-purpose' holy water , as long as the purposes are holy. In a lot of parishes you'll find a big plastic tankard with little tap with holy water in it to take home, or to refill the fonts with.

I like Anglicans :-) big big soft spot.

Re: holy water

[angoel.livejournal.com]

In theory I suppose a priest could bless a limitless amount of water, but because it must be set apart for a holy purpose this implies a priest would only bless an amount of water that one could actually use for a purpose. I don`t think there is a maximum volume set anywhere in either holy tradition or canon law, but common sense applies.

Could a priest bless a lake if the holy purpose involved travelling across it in a boat, in order to prevent evil spirits lurking within from causing trouble with the journey?

Re: holy water

[isolani.livejournal.com]

I`m not really sure if travelling across a lake is a holy purpose *per se* , however - as blessing water is theoretically (as the old pre-Vatican II ritual makes clear) an act of excorcism I suppose there would not be any harm in blessing the waters - but only if the lake has a history of pesky interfering spirits bothering the Faithful going on pilgrimages. I`m not quite sure if one would use eaxctly the same ritual as one uses for making Holy Water , but I suppose a ritual somewhat like it would not be unappropriate. :-p

[liv]

This is a good idea, defining a category of people who talk more than I find them interesting, because "too much" is clearly going to be in a different place for people I already have a strong connection with than for people I've met once at a party. I already have a default view and a non-default view, but I don't think that distinction helps me, partly because I don't have enough self-discipline to restrict how often I read the non-default.

I think you are solving a different problem from the one I actually have, though. There were about 30 people on my friendslist who are generally interesting, and talk just the right amount, but left me feeling that I didn't really know them any better after reading their LJs for a few months. I didn't really feel any inclination to comment on their posts, and they rarely commented on mine. I would like to keep these people until I do know them well enough to feel connected to them, but I just have too many people. Moving them into a rarely checked filter would just make it even less likely that I'll ever get to know them. The plan is that if I remove them, more of my LJ time will be spent talking to people and strengthening existing connections, rather than all of it being taken up by just reading really interesting posts from people I don't know.

[pplfichi.livejournal.com]

*nods* I do something similar, as well as using the Mobile View as an essential read filter.

[abigailb.livejournal.com]

Also: what do they do with the body and blood of Christ if they made too much?

[naath.livejournal.com]

We had this one at pizza!

The body of Christ may be stored; you have to put it in a, um, *thing* (tabernacle?) that is specially wossname for the purpose. But because it's usually wafers rather than normal bread it keeps fine. You take it out and use it next time, or take it 'round to sick people. Plus you can keep it this way so that if a non-priest has a service they can give out the body of Christ (which only a priest can consecrate).

The blood of Christ may *never* be stored consecrated (obviously you store the wine prior to consecration) nor thrown away. It must be drunk, this is normally done by the people who hand it out (Eucharistic ministers?) and the priest. I guess you could ask for volunteers if you stupidly consecrated a whole bottle when only 5 people wanted to receive.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

There are complicated disposal rituals. No, that's if you drop some (and are transubstantiationalist). This came up again over pizza, and host can be stored, but blood should be drunk -- apparently the priest shouldn't make too much in advance if he can avoid it, and drink a small excess himself, but someone recounted a story of the priest asking for volunteers to help, after almost all the congregation had asked for only a blessing instead of communion. But that's not very precise.

L: Thanks for bringing it up :) What really bugs me is I'm sure I had some reason, probably not vampire related, for wondering in the first place, but I can't remember what it was :)

1. Is there such a thing as a lesbian icon?

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

My first thought was about livejournal icons, which was startlingly appropriate, given who people choose to portray in them.

My third, even more inappropriate, was about little statues of the virgin mary :)

[ewx.livejournal.com]

My non-default filter contains things I don't want on my work screen, so the discipline is externally imposed. Fair enough about answering a different question, though.

[daharyn.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what's all on your lesbian music playlist yet, but Melissa Ferrick's "Drive" is essential. I would also include God-des and She -- my preference would be for "Lick It", but if this is going to include an audience of anyone of refined tastes, "Love You Better" would probably be more ...appropriate. And Tegan and Sara -- I am not up-to-date on their latest stuff, but there are a couple of songs which get a lot of play.

Apparently I have stronger opinions on this topic than I realized, because my brain's generating a number of additional ideas.

[lisekit.livejournal.com]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jun/24/television.gayrights

[liv]

Navratilova! How did I ever forget her?! Thank you for that link. I didn't know about Valerie Singleton. If the article is right, it suggests that lesbian icons have to be actual lesbians, which is an interesting contrast.

Drive-by punning

[j4.livejournal.com]

Can the holy water be diluted with normal water, and does that make the mixture holy or unholy?

It makes it holyopathic!

Re: Drive-by punning

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

I think I have just realised something that's going to turn another one of those collections of mildly dumb ideas that I occasionally quote for purposes of being mildly amusing into an actual novel. In this case, a mildly dumb novel, but, well, I haven't actually tried to write broad comedy before, so we shall see. One of these years.

It is the fault of this post and this comment, though.

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

I could be a lesbian icon.

Well, according to a recent meeting of Wychwood old gits 'looks feminine, shaves infrequently, sounds like a lesbian to me', is an accurate description. All I need now is for people to know who I am and I'm all ready to assume iconic status.

Of course, given my generally shy and reticent nature, this may prove a problem...

[liv]

You would be a fantastic lesbian icon! If gay icons are flamboyant straight women, then a lesbian icon should totally be a shy, reticent straight guy. Perfect solution.

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

According to wychwood, who is one of those people who helps out at masses (I forget the name of the post), the wine is definitely drunk after the mass, but not necessarily by the priest. She has whined frequently about having to down large amounts of leftover wine after the ceremony, when unusually few people turned up.