Travelling: SE England II

[liv]

Tuesday evening I went to London to split up with lethargic_man. Londoners are really stupid. I was in the depths of a Northern Line station when there was a security alert. So instead of evacuating the station as fast as possible, people hung around bitching about how inconvenient it was to have security alerts, arguing with the station staff to try and be allowed on the platform, and stopping in the entrance to get out their mobile phones and tell people they were going to be late. I can't help wondering how many people are going to have to get killed - chas ve'chalilah - to get these daft sheep to understand how to respond to security alerts. And it doesn't have to be a terrorist attack; it could just as easily be an accident. Maybe that's why the Kings Cross fire of a few years ago was so devastating.

Anyway, I made it to central London. On the whole, the experience was pretty much like any other evening lethargic_man and I have spent together. We drank tea, and talked about everything we could think of, and pointed cool things out to eachother, and studied a bit of Talmud, and snuggled as much as we could get away with in public. Actually, I think I'm going to miss that more than the directly sexual side of the relationship: just the affectionate touching, the holding hands and stroking eachother's hair and sitting curled up together. But yeah, we thoroughly enjoyed eachother's company as we always do. I think at some level I was sort of hoping for a last minute reprieve, but it didn't happen, and we said goodbye as planned.

On Wednesday I headed to Brighton to see my brothers, who conveniently are both living in the same house these days. So we had a very fun evening drinking lots and lots of tea and chatting about all kinds of random things, politics, religion, philosophy, and just the kind of free-ranging randomness that is possible with people you've known all your life. There were various of Screwy's friends and carers around (and it's interesting how he's ended up with those two categories overlapping). They are generally lovely and pretty brave about joining in the mad conversations that happen when lots of my family get together.

One of them made us a truly stupendous curry, on the grounds that Screwy wasn't feeling too well so we might as well take advantage by eating all the foods that he's forbidden, as he couldn't manage more than plain rice anyway. Also got to hear about Thuggish Poet's teaching job; I still can't quite get my head round the idea that he is a real proper teacher who gets Obeyed. What was really scary was his coming home with an account of the parents' evening he'd just been to; he's jumped straight from being scared of what teachers are going to say about him to being listened to respectfully by parents wanting to find out about their kids.

I slept over; being related to a bed company means that the brothers, like me, have a quite silly number of spare beds. And we woke up in the morning to news of Blunkett's resignation. Which was rather a fun thing to share with my brothers.

compilerbitch met me off the train in Cambridge, and took me out for pizza. We had the most delightful afternoon chatting about anything and everything, particularly talking shop. I really appreciate being able to talk shop with compilerbitch when our fields are so very different. She's extremely good both at explaining complicated mathematical concepts so I can understand, and taking an interest in the esoteric technical aspects of my work.

I had hoped to see compilerbitch in the evening when doseybat might have been able to join us. That didn't happen, and I was disappointed to miss doseybat. But it was also very nice to spend time with compilerbitch just as a cool person, rather than just because she happens to be attached to Bat. compilerbitch gave me a lift home late afternoon and we continued the conversation for a bit with my parents. So that rounded off a lovely sociable few days very nicely. And it was excellently distracting from the break-up; I simply didn't have a minute to myself to mope.

I pilfered Screwy's copy of Kim while I was staying with him, so I've now reviewed it.

Comments

[redbird]

Snuggly is good. One of the things I like about (my way of) being a grownup is that I get to snuggle people who aren't, never have been, and don't want to be my sweeties.

[liv]

I get to snuggle people who aren't, never have been, and don't want to be my sweeties
This sounds like a really excellent sort of approach! Good for you. There definitely are people with whom I am physically affectionate though not at all romantically involved, but that doesn't mean that all my friends are going to be comfortable with that.

I can't realistically see being snuggly with a very recent ex who is also quite shy about this kind of thing, and comes from a culture where there is very little in the way of affectionate touch. The way we got to be as a couple was actually quite amazing, considering that a fair proportion of lethargic_man's friends are shomerei negiah (forbidden absolutely all physical contact between opposite sexes except within marriage). Even apart from these considerations, there's the fact that we're 500 miles apart, which isn't very conducive to snuggling.

Lots of my other people who are comfortable with lots of touch are also extremely far away just now. I have no intention of being maudlin about this, but believe me, if I don't have anyone to snuggle just now, the reason is not that I'm too childish to understand non-sexual affection.

[redbird]

I had not meant to imply that you don't share that value of adulthood: if anything, I was extending from rysmiel's identification of your handling of the breakup as grownup, but trying not to assume that you shared my cuddle-settings.

[hatam-soferet.livejournal.com]

You can come and snuggle over here any time you've got a spare few days and a plane ticket. I'm on holiday as of Sunday, do you want to set up time for an IM chevruta?

[liv]

I must apologize; rereading my comment this morning it sounds really really snippy, and I didn't mean that at all. In my head, the tone was entirely conversational: it's interesting to hear about your attitude and experience of this, this is where I feel similar and this is where I'm different. But the words I chose don't convey that at all well.

I think I'm partly uncomfortable with the way rysmiel uses grownup, and I think your usage is similar. It's covering a field of meaning which is definitely worth talking about, but the term itself reminds me too strongly that the opposite is childish or immature or puerile. I suppose it's a bit analogous to feminists who object to exhortations to 'be a man!' on the grounds that it may be seen to imply, even if unintentionally, negative things about women. I do like the way you and rysmiel approach these sorts of things, but I'm not so keen on the implication that people who don't have the same attitude are childish.

Being grownup, touch, et cetera

[redbird]

No apologies necessary. Text doesn't always convey tone as well as we'd like.

As for the term, I'd say that--and I can't speak for rysmiel here, of course, though that's where I picked up this usage--there are varied grownup ways of addressing such matters, and I hope my attitude is one of them. For example, simply not wanting to cuddle isn't childish. And assuming that of course you can snuggle people is a thing children do; tagging that with sexual and social reasons not to is an adolescent thing. Adults, I hope, would be able to say, at least to themselves and usually to the other people directly involved, things like "I'd like a hug now" or "I'm not comfortable being touched." It's not in any way grownup for a person to sulk if an acquaintance doesn't want to hug them: that, like other aspects of friendship and affection, should be a gift, and is not something that a person has a right to demand just because they're in the same place as you are, or because you're hugging someone else.

Having expanded a bit, or at least rambled, I'll go back to what you actually wrote and add that I'd be happy to look at better terms for this. Ideally terms that aren't already overloaded and don't have worse implications.

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

I think I'm partly uncomfortable with the way rysmiel uses grownup, and I think your usage is similar. It's covering a field of meaning which is definitely worth talking about, but the term itself reminds me too strongly that the opposite is childish or immature or puerile.

Just rushing through here, so in brief:

I hope my usage of grown-up does not come across as being set in opposition to people who feel differently about touch and confort levels from how I do. What it is intended to be set in opposition to is people who both adopt a particular position on this issue or any of a number of others, without visibly being aware that there is thought here or an issue on which people can vary - the nature of the position they adopt is irrelevant, it's the attitude to the position that bugs me - and then proceed about human interactions as if said unexamined position were the Only Reality of Human Nature and anyone doing otherwise is at best misguided and more likely malicious in intent. I have had to put up with a great deal more of that than I would like, in my life, and I have no hesitation in considering it immature; nor in regarding the degrees of sensitivity, awareness and general consideration for others it takes to think such things through and communicate about them honestly and work things out in the best possible way for all concerned as virtues which strike me as grown-up.

[ I'm now about to go offline for a few days. I'm not abandoning any comments you may have on this, I just may not get to them for a while. ]

[liv]

I'm now about to go offline for a few days.
I hope that I'm in time to wish you a pleasant break, then.

any comments you may have on this
My response to this can wait till the new year, I'm sure. As ever I have hundreds of things to talk to you about and it's not all going to be this evening in any case.

[liv]

You can come and snuggle over here
That's a really lovely invitation, dear badger! Thank you.

any time you've got a spare few days and a plane ticket.
I'm very much hoping to have both, probably some time around shavuot. Not promising anything, but that's my goal at the moment.

I'm on holiday as of Sunday
Cool, it's good your people are not too holy to give you Christmas off.

do you want to set up time for an IM chevruta?
Mmmmm yes please, very much so. Are you still off in the new year? Cos if we said, say, Sunday 2^nd, lethargic_man would be back and we could try to involve him for the purpose of Limmud related grilling. Failing that, evenings (my time) are good; I'm thinking that would be about mid-afternoon for you, right? I think the best bet is just to see if I'm online when you feel like studying and we can figure it out from there. Do you have anything specific in mind?

Re: Being grownup, touch, et cetera

[liv]

there are varied grownup ways of addressing such matters
OK, that makes more sense now, and I appreciate your examples. You're not assuming that people have to be like to you to count.

I'd be happy to look at better terms for this
Thinking about it it feels as if this sense of grownup is a little bit like the way I use the term mensh, and obviously the implication is similar, the idea of being a complete, mature human being. Which remark is along the lines of, yeah, I'm becoming reconciled to grownup as we're having this discussion (not: I think you should change your term for mine).

[liv]

I hope my usage of grown-up does not come across as being set in opposition to people who feel differently about touch and confort levels from how I do.
OK, that clarifies things a lot, thank you.

proceed about human interactions as if said unexamined position were the Only Reality of Human Nature
Put like that, this strikes me as an entirely reasonable thing to be annoyed about! Admittedly, there's some excuse that if someone hasn't realized there's any alternative, it's very difficult for them to be prepared to deal with a situation they've never thought of, but that's pretty pathetic really.

anyone doing otherwise is at best misguided and more likely malicious in intent.
That's in some way a definition of narrow-mindedness, yes. But the specific example that started the discussion was being comfortable with touch, and I think it's pretty ingrained to be scared if touched in an unexpected way; that's very atavistically threatening. Of course, the grownups you're describing would ask first, but I can see why someone might see malicious intent even in a question about a kind of touch that their culture does not regard as normal.

I have no hesitation in considering it immature
No, in this context immature is almost the most positive way you can look at the issue; it at least implies that the person so criticized might one day learn better!

regarding the degrees of sensitivity, awareness and general consideration for others it takes to think such things through and communicate about them honestly and work things out in the best possible way for all concerned as virtues
Virtues definitely. But I think it's a reasonable expectation of children too that they should respect others' wishes and be considerate.

I think you and redbird between you have converted me to this usage :-)

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

I've never used IM; I'd have to figure out how to get it set up on epicyclic first. (But this does sound potentially interesting.)

[liv]

I've never used IM; I'd have to figure out how to get it set up on epicyclic first.
You may not have to; there's a web interface to it. Poke around at aol.com. Failing that, I would be very surprised if no-one in the world has ever written an IM program for Linux. Jabber might be a good place to look; they're very geeky and into open source and that kind of thing.

(But this does sound potentially interesting.
Yay! You're so not going to get away with going to Limmud and not sharing any of the cool stuff you learn there, you know.

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

I'm using gaim (http://gaim.sourceforge.net/), which is what I tried to use the abortive last time I tried getting IM going on a computer of mine, a few years ago.