Book: Wild Seed
Oct. 11th, 2003 09:55 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
livAuthor: Octavia Butler
Details: (c) 1980 Octavia E. Butler; Pub Victor Gollancz 2000; ISBN 057507-145-1
Verdict: Wild Seed is extremely disturbing, and hard to justify apart from the obvious quality of the writing.
Reasons for reading it:![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lethargic_man recommended it, on the grounds of interesting ideas about different forms of immortality.
How it came into my hands:lethargic_man lent it to me.
I found Wild Seed rather upsetting; it comes close to a gratuitous description of prolonged torture of a rather exceptional woman by an almost unlimitedly powerful man.
The writing is certainly very vivid, and is very successful in creating a world with magic in it. It's a world where legends about things like witchcraft and vampires are based on reality, and is definitely closer to magic realism than fantasy. And there's a lot of very interesting insight into the psychological and social effects of the characters' supernatural abilities. I think WS seeds where Mary Gentle's Ash fails: the magic is woven into a plausible alternative history and meshes rigorously with scientific models of reality.
But beyond that, I can't see a reason why this story needs to exist. There's no way that Anyanwu can defeat or even escape Doro; he is simply ridiculously more powerful than her, to the extent that every time she tried my reaction was, if she gets away with this I'm going to be disgusted. For her to do anything other than suffer eternal torture and humiliation at Doro's hands would completely violate the book's own parameters. And the torture and humiliation are evoked exceedingly well, as is the utter futility of Anyanwu's struggle. At the same time, the book is after all fantasy, which means that it isn't simply a protest about real human cruelty or anything like that. So not only is it depressing, it seems kind of pointless from a narrative pov.
If it's meant as an allegory of the relationship of the sexes, then it creates a model which makes Mars / Venus seem a positive Utopia. It occurred to me that it might also be religious allegory; Doro is explicitly referred to as a god on several occasions. Again, it presents a very depressing model of the nature of the divine. Doro is forced by his very nature to do things that on a human scale seem deeply immoral, yet his nature, including his immense power, also makes him worthy of worship. And despite his power he finally admits that he needs Anyanwu as something more than a mere worshipper, and they establish some sort of partnership, even if he is far more powerful than she. There have been times in my life when I have experienced God as the indifferent landlord of a burning house, and I can somewhat relate to the deeply uncomfortable view of God that I have extrapolated from WS.
The trouble with that reading is that it's impossible to ignore the literal level of the story completely. Which basically makes it a chronicle of a horribly abusive relationship, made worse than any possible real relationship by the supernatural abilities of the protagonists. And there's a very strong hint of the awful Beauty and the Beast myth, the idea that a woman can learn to love her abuser.
Wild Seed will certainly stick in my mind, but in some ways I think I'd rather it didn't.
Details: (c) 1980 Octavia E. Butler; Pub Victor Gollancz 2000; ISBN 057507-145-1
Verdict: Wild Seed is extremely disturbing, and hard to justify apart from the obvious quality of the writing.
Reasons for reading it:
lethargic_man recommended it, on the grounds of interesting ideas about different forms of immortality. How it came into my hands:
lethargic_man lent it to me.I found Wild Seed rather upsetting; it comes close to a gratuitous description of prolonged torture of a rather exceptional woman by an almost unlimitedly powerful man.
The writing is certainly very vivid, and is very successful in creating a world with magic in it. It's a world where legends about things like witchcraft and vampires are based on reality, and is definitely closer to magic realism than fantasy. And there's a lot of very interesting insight into the psychological and social effects of the characters' supernatural abilities. I think WS seeds where Mary Gentle's Ash fails: the magic is woven into a plausible alternative history and meshes rigorously with scientific models of reality.
But beyond that, I can't see a reason why this story needs to exist. There's no way that Anyanwu can defeat or even escape Doro; he is simply ridiculously more powerful than her, to the extent that every time she tried my reaction was, if she gets away with this I'm going to be disgusted. For her to do anything other than suffer eternal torture and humiliation at Doro's hands would completely violate the book's own parameters. And the torture and humiliation are evoked exceedingly well, as is the utter futility of Anyanwu's struggle. At the same time, the book is after all fantasy, which means that it isn't simply a protest about real human cruelty or anything like that. So not only is it depressing, it seems kind of pointless from a narrative pov.
If it's meant as an allegory of the relationship of the sexes, then it creates a model which makes Mars / Venus seem a positive Utopia. It occurred to me that it might also be religious allegory; Doro is explicitly referred to as a god on several occasions. Again, it presents a very depressing model of the nature of the divine. Doro is forced by his very nature to do things that on a human scale seem deeply immoral, yet his nature, including his immense power, also makes him worthy of worship. And despite his power he finally admits that he needs Anyanwu as something more than a mere worshipper, and they establish some sort of partnership, even if he is far more powerful than she. There have been times in my life when I have experienced God as the indifferent landlord of a burning house, and I can somewhat relate to the deeply uncomfortable view of God that I have extrapolated from WS.
The trouble with that reading is that it's impossible to ignore the literal level of the story completely. Which basically makes it a chronicle of a horribly abusive relationship, made worse than any possible real relationship by the supernatural abilities of the protagonists. And there's a very strong hint of the awful Beauty and the Beast myth, the idea that a woman can learn to love her abuser.
Wild Seed will certainly stick in my mind, but in some ways I think I'd rather it didn't.
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Wild Seed
Date: 2003-10-15 10:08 pm (UTC)Spoilers follow
I understand it's based on real African legends; not being familiar with those myself, I found it interesting as a take on the familiar concept of the vampire: How do you kill a vampire that cannot be killed?
But beyond that, I can't see a reason why this story needs to exist. There's no way that Anyanwu can defeat or even escape Doro;
True; the only way she can win, and the way she does in the end, is to convert him to value her, and her values. Doro is a man in an awful situation which forces him to kill again and again. Centuries before the story starts, he finds his way to a modus vivendi that stops him going inane, and which is honourable in his terms. The story is about Anyanwu's struggle to make him reappraise those terms, and find a new modus vivendi which isn't so callous towards the rest of humanity.
(As for tortue and humiliation, my reaction may have been a bit coloured by the fact I read this not long after Alex Haley's Roots. The contrast in the Atlantic crossings was particularly striking; by his terms, Doro did look after his people, far better than the slave traders and slave owners in America looked after their slaves.)
Re: Wild Seed
Date: 2003-10-16 11:36 am (UTC)Unpleasant world views are as likely to happen in real (ie traditional) legends as in original made-up stories. I did wonder about the word used for a spirit or vampire, though; is it related to the English word banshee? Though the online etymology thingy derives banshee from Irish bean sidhe, which admittedly seems more plausible.
Re: Wild Seed
Date: 2003-10-16 11:55 am (UTC)But I don't think she does win. Doro makes a compromise, he agrees not to take the bodies of his own people once they reach the end of their breeding usefulness. But Anyanwu has no way of enforcing this promise. If he betrays her again (and he has repeatedly come wooing, lavishing gifts and kindnesses on her, only to devise some new torture as soon as she starts to soften towards him), her only option is suicide; she is no better off than she was.
I'm most strongly reminded of Taming of the Shrew: Doro wins because he is so much more powerful than Anyanwu, and he uses this power to enslave her. If in the end she comes to accept her slavery, even love Doro, that just makes him even more the winner, exactly like Petruchio. Some people might argue that the ending of Shrew is likewise positive, in that Kate is presumably 'happy' to be completely ruled by her husband from now on.
I just can't see how Doro deserves Anyanwu's eternal devotion, as a reward for his consistent (and continuing) completely immoral and cruel behaviour. And I can't see the outcome as happy for Anyanwu; she may get some benefit from the relationship, but whether she does or not, she is not free, she either has to make the most of it, or kill herself. Indeed, her love for Doro makes even the latter option very difficult for her.
Re: Wild Seed
Date: 2003-10-26 02:05 pm (UTC)Well yes, but the impression is given they have reached an accommodation that will hold for a long time. Happy ever after endings rarely exist; life goes on, after the ending of the book, and sometimes it all goes pear-shaped some time thereafter. You can tell that in a book too, in the form of a sequel. But the plot arc that is told within the bounds of Wild Seed is finally closed at the end of it; if it all falls apart another century down the line is the subject for another (hypothetical) book.
I just can't see how Doro deserves Anyanwu's eternal devotion, as a reward for his consistent (and continuing) completely immoral and cruel behaviour. And I can't see the outcome as happy for Anyanwu; she may get some benefit from the relationship, but whether she does or not, she is not free, she either has to make the most of it, or kill herself. Indeed, her love for Doro makes even the latter option very difficult for her.
But the whole point of the ending was that she'd reached the point where she was prepared to kill herself, if necessary. That is the hold she has on Doro. It may not be a well-balanced relationship, but it's the best that could be managed in the circumstances. It's not about Anyanwu giving Doro eternal devotion; it's about Anyanwu being prepared to use her life as a barganing chip to keep him in check.
And as for continuing immoral and cruel behaviour, the last couple of pages describe how she stops him from plumbing the depths of cruelty he had before.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-29 06:17 pm (UTC)What's 'a long time' when the protagonists are immortal? Is the fact that they might (and I'm not sure I even believe this) get on well enough for years, decades or whatever really any different from the fact that they have had occasional happy times together throughout the book?
Happy ever after endings rarely exist
True; I suppose I was objecting to the presentation of what seems to me a most unsatisfactory outcome as some kind of 'happy ending'. And there is such a thing as a good relationship, in life as well as in literature.
It may not be a well-balanced relationship, but it's the best that could be managed in the circumstances
Again, I have problems with this as the structure for a novel. Things are bad intitially, and by the end they are somewhat less bad, and as you've said, I don't think there's much hope presented for continued improvement. That doesn't seem to me like a resolution.
the last couple of pages describe how she stops him from plumbing the depths of cruelty he had before
It's perfectly justified to take the narrative at face value, but I just don't buy that. Anyanwu may have decided to trust Doro, but that doesn't mean I, as the reader, do. It's the classic story of why women go back repeatedly to abusive partners: they're convinced that this time he really means the remorse.
That's what I find so worrying about Wild Seed; the suggestion that Doro is actually sincere this time seems to go against the rest of what the book itself has set up about his character. It seems to me that here is someone cruel and immoral, and the ending is somehow implying that he's actually an acceptable husband for Anyanwu, even though it does not give any but the weakest indication that he has actually changed his ways.
Re: Wild Seed
Date: 2003-10-16 01:17 pm (UTC)Yes, I think it is certainly possible to pity Doro; that is very much one of the strengths of Wild Seed. He is quite literally forced to kill (as I read it, he does not even have the option of self-annihilation to prevent such killing) and there is no way he could function at all if he were to feel a murderer's guilt at every killing. And his superhuman loneliness is very powerfully portrayed. And it is very clear throughout that it is not possible to judge such a vampire by normal human standards.
At the same time, I do not see this pitiable situation as justification for his repeated, deliberate cruelty. He is not forced to establish a reign of terror over 'his people'; he does not have to torture and kill anyone he sees as a potential rival. In fact, his doing so is a large part of the reason why he is lonely, though his immortality also has something to do with it. Anyanwu is no threat to him, because she has no ambition for the sort of power that he possesses. I could understand that it might take him some time to realize this, but what is really morally repulsive is his continued (and, as I've discussed above, IMO successful) attempt to break her simply because he needs to reaffirm his power over her.
honourable in his terms
What possible aspect of Doro's behaviour can be seen as honourable, in any terms? I just don't buy it.
The story is about Anyanwu's struggle to make him reappraise those terms, and find a new modus vivendi which isn't so callous towards the rest of humanity
I agree that Anyanwu would like to do this; I don't agree that she succeeds. He does not become less callous, he simply makes a few compromises because that's the easiest way he can think of of keeping Anyanwu alive. He doesn't really even care for Anyanwu, except in as far as he needs her, and he needs her in a way which is not compatible with her being completely in despair. Someone who has the power that Doro has should have some ability to use that power for good, and it seems to me as if any good Doro does is entirely incidental to his motivation.
Doro did look after his people, far better than the slave traders and slave owners in America looked after their slaves.
The fact that there is real cruelty and abuse of power in the world is not a justification for a novel about entirely fictional and supernatural cruelty and abuse as portrayed in Wild Seed. There is no moral point, because beings like Doro and Anyanwu do not in fact exist, and there is no narrative point that I can see.
(On the other hand, it's very interesting to discuss the novel with you...)
Re: Wild Seed
Date: 2003-10-26 02:13 pm (UTC)Looking after his people. This is strongly established in the first few pages, where he feels he has failed them. Of course it's not honourable in our terms, but that is half my point.
The fact that there is real cruelty and abuse of power in the world is not a justification for a novel about entirely fictional and supernatural cruelty and abuse as portrayed in Wild Seed. There is no moral point, because beings like Doro and Anyanwu do not in fact exist, and there is no narrative point that I can see.
I disagree. If there were no relevance to the real world, why would the novel have been set when it was, in the context of Africans being enslaved and taken to America? Of course there are no real-world analogues of Doro and Anyanwu, but one can draw an abstract analogy with the situation of the colonial' absolute power over their slaves and potential for cruelty to them, and the fact the only real power the slave did have was to try and arouse their masters' compassion.
Re: Wild Seed
Date: 2003-10-26 07:29 pm (UTC)This is a very good point, actually, and one I hadn't thought of. It's definitely a more reasonable reading than any I came up with. Thanks! The abuse of power, often shading into deliberate cruelty, the dehumanizing of the victims, the application of controlled 'breeding' programmes, and so on, are things that actually happened, and a personal, if fictional narrative, is not a bad way to witness to such things.
the only real power the slave did have was to try and arouse their masters' compassion
This I find unsatisfactory for the same reason I find the pshat unsatisfactory. A compassionate slave-owner is still someone who attempts to own another human being; a slave who somehow manages to forgive and even love his master is still a slave, perhaps even more a slave than one who refuses to accept his slavery. To a very great extent, this resolution comes close to justifying the slavery system.
I'm not a great expert on the history of slavery, but it seems to me that what actually happened is far more desirable than this outcome. There was not a change from a situation where slaves were badly treated and therefore miserable to one with 'happy', well cared-for slaves. Much more radically, slavery was abolished altogether and the former slaves became equal citizens with their former masters. Obviously this 'happy ending' did not apply to the every individual slave, but even so, the former scenario should never, to mind, have been a goal at all.
Re: Wild Seed
Date: 2003-10-26 10:12 pm (UTC)This I find unsatisfactory for the same reason I find the pshat unsatisfactory. A compassionate slave-owner is still someone who attempts to own another human being; a slave who somehow manages to forgive and even love his master is still a slave, perhaps even more a slave than one who refuses to accept his slavery. To a very great extent, this resolution comes close to justifying the slavery system.
Agreed.
I'm not a great expert on the history of slavery, but it seems to me that what actually happened is far more desirable than this outcome. There was not a change from a situation where slaves were badly treated and therefore miserable to one with 'happy', well cared-for slaves. Much more radically, slavery was abolished altogether and the former slaves became equal citizens with their former masters.
In theory*. In practice the former slaves were not in any wise treated as equals; it took another century, until the time of Martin Luther King, until this was achieved.
Nor was freeing the slaves a simple matter. It provoked (albeit indirectly**) a long and extremely bloody civil war. I do not think it coincidence that the book stops just before this happens -- close enough so it is obvious to the protagonists that it is going to happen. I think this could be a case of setting up a non-existent sequel (in the same way that Arthur C. Clarke was setting up a then non-intended sequel when he ended Rendezvous With Rama with the PoV character's realising: "The Ramans do everything in threes").
* Disclaimer: This is an area in which I'm no great expert either.
** The USAn Civil War was not about slavery per se, but about whether the federal government had the right to impose laws on individual states to the degree emancipation required.