Linguistic discovery of the day

[liv]

So we were discussing the matter of how people are perceived by others versus what their character is actually like. And somebody mentioned that I come across as being nicey nicey and unassertive at first, she said, I think it's because you're quite... frum. She fumbled for the word, and decided it didn't exist in English. But I got very excited as she was defining it for me because it turns out that the Swedish word frum means exactly the same as the Yiddish word, the lack of which I frequently deplore in English: religious in the sense of being committed to the rules and formal observances of the religion. Like pious but more specific. Cool, huh?

Comments

[wychwood]

That's very cool :)

Do you feel that "frum" differs much from "observant"? Because that's what it sounds like to me, based on your definition above. *hunts nuances*

[liv]

Frum is not very different from observant, no; if you interchanged the two in any given sentence, you'd most likely end up with sentences that made sense. But it's a particular kind of observant. I think the difference is that it refers to one possible attitude towards religious rules. Someone might be observant of a really radical, bleeding-edge liberal kind of religion; they wouldn't be frum.

[wychwood]

So does "frum" imply a sort of conservatism? Loyalty to tradition, not just rules? Could you apply it outside Judaism?

[liv]

Yeah, it definitely does have connotations of conservative or traditional. If I use it for someone who's not Jewish, I only do so when there's a clear analogy to what I mean in a Jewish context. I imagine the Swedish term has a slightly more general meaning, though.

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

One of these days I will have time to figure out and post about how frum feels different to pietas as a concept and why the latter feels more congenial to me.

[liv]

I would find that very interesting. But you have lots of interesting things to think and talk about so of course you have to prioritize your time.

I don't think frum is necessarily meant to be congenial. It is used negatively as often as not.

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

One of these days I will have time to figure out and post about how frum feels different to pietas as a concept and why the latter feels more congenial to me.

ObGrammaticalNitPicking: "How frum feels different to pius," or "how frumkeit feels different to pietas."

(This unwanted linguistic advice was brought to you by the letter פ and the number LXX.)

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

It may be that you regard piety as a more admirable quality than observance of rules. That's not the way Judaism is supposed to work--the rules are most of the point. Around here at least, the same people that are referred to as "frum" in Yiddish are referred to as "shomer Shabbat" in Hebrew. That's "observant" in English, or sometimes "devout," but translating it as "pious" seems to be missing something.

[liv]

Good clarification, thanks. This isn't true universally for all forms of Judaism, but then few things are.

I think the Hebrew equivalent of frum should be shomer mitzvot and not just shomer Shabbat, but that is partly because singling out a particular attitude towards shabbat observance rather than all the other things that a good Jew is supposed to do is something I find a bit annoying. The fact that I'm annoyed about it doesn't stop lots of people doing so, of course.

[lunza.livejournal.com]

In English ... or at least to Americans ... or at least to THIS American, "pious" used to describe oneself is insufferably self-aggrandizing, and used to describe someone else is a put-down implying hypocrisy somewhere along the line. Similarly you don't want to go around saying how devout you are -- it carries the taint of bragging. Frum at least doesn't have those connotations, though there is the word "frumpy," which means something like "very badly dressed," and "frump," a woman who is at the same time unfashionable, modest and sloppy.

[liv]

Mm, thanks for these observations. I agree with you that pious and devout are either inappropriate boasts, or frank insults. I'm not sure whether frum is connected to frumpy in reality, but it's an interesting thought. Frum at least can be neutral or even positive, though it isn't in all cases.

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that pious and devout are either inappropriate boasts, or frank insults

I would not naturally hear them as that at all, fwiw.

[ewx.livejournal.com]

Seconded; I would normally interpret them as intended positively. Something intended positively of said of oneself can be a boast, of course, but I don't think it has to be.

[beckyzoole.livejournal.com]

You're right that frum is not actually connected to frumpy, although the similarity in sound does tend to give it a little bit of a frumpy connotation.

From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, the etymology of frumpy is:

Possibly short for Middle English frumple, wrinkle, from Middle Dutch verrompelen, to wrinkle : ver-, completely; see per1 in Indo-European roots + rompelen, to wrinkle.

[curious-reader.livejournal.com]

No, the Jiddish word "frum" comes from German "from". It means observant in general if you use it in German. When Swedish is so near to German I am not surprised they have a very similar word.

[liv]

Thanks, I didn't know that there was a German equivalent too. Of course, the Yiddish word had to come from somewhere!

One non-believer's usage

[redbird]

It feels a bit like the difference between someone saying "I'm very honest" and someone else saying "So-and-so is very honest, you can trust them with anything."

While "I'm very devout" might sound like boasting, "s/he's very devout" isn't necessarily. Context matters, again: if I've just pointed out that the person being described owns 29 Rolls Royces, or is rude to waiters, adding that they're devout is either an accusation of hypocrisy, or a snipe at the religion they're devout in. If the same adjective was preceded by a mention of their charitable works, it's probably meant as praise. And if it's an explanation of why the person won't be at a social or educational event that's being held on a day that's also a holiday of their religion, it's neutral.

[liv]

Yes, this makes sense. I was possibly too readily swayed by lunza's comment. Just because a word can be used sarcastically, that doesn't necessarily change the base meaning of the word. Thinking about it, pious has more immediate negative connotations than devout.

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

"Frum (Yiddish: פֿרום; [frum | frim]), from the German fromm, meaning pious" -- via http://onelook.com.

[curious-reader.livejournal.com]

I didn't see that entry. I made a mistake with my German Orthography. I hardly use my first language since I live in the UK. Here you go. I was right.

[liv]

I didn't know about onelook, and it looks a really useful tool! Thanks for pointing it out.

[lyssiae.livejournal.com]

Dutch has the word vroom which is clearly (ha! Famous last words) related. I usually translate it as devout in English, which latter I usually interpret without the possible negative connotations one might get with pious.

Ahhhhh, languages :)

[liv]

Vroom, cool, I thought that was the word that Pratchett made up for the sound a tree makes when it's growing very very fast. I have a native Dutch speaker who is also a frum Jew hanging about here somewhere, maybe she can shed some light. But thanks for adding in another comparison!

[ewx.livejournal.com]

Given that it apparently has cognates in German, Dutch and Swedish I guess the question is what happened to it in English l-)

[hairyears.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... As an outsidr to the community, I'd always translated 'frum' as verkrampt a term of art in Afrikaans for conservatism and correctness.

[liv]

The thing about frum is that people who are frum will use it as a compliment, but people who are not frum (or who are, but are defensive about not being frum enough), tend to use it as a (usually mild) insult. If you've mainly heard the word from people in the second group, you may have a more negative impression than you would get from a random sample. I think the same is true of conservative, mind you; people who are conservative think it's a good thing to be, but people who are not use it to imply excessively rigid, sexually repressed, authoritarian and so on.

[curious-reader.livejournal.com]

When I use it rather as an insult I say "meshugge-frum". I actually mean somebody who is really overdoing it.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, I have never heard "frum" used insultingly, unless from a Jew predisposed to dislike Orthodox Jews. And yes, "meshugge-frum" is the right way to talk about a frummer insultingly for going over the top with it. Which is, of course, all in the eye of the beholder.

"Frum" means observant of Orthodox Judaism. One certainly needn't be "pious" in any way to be considered frum, although some Rabbis might say you should be pious. "Devout" or "religious" could also work, although they could refer to all sorts of streams of Judaism or to one's private faith alone, whereas "frum" is about Orthodox Judaism.

Typically, if someone keeps stricly kosher, is "shomer shabbos and yom tov" and covers their head most of the time(if male), they'd likely qualify as "frum." The next rung up the ladder might include wearing tzitzis, tefillin, davening every day, perhaps saying brochas over food. And from there on, the sky's the limit!

[(Anonymous)]

Hello,
More fun than Kant
YAB
Also frum not a=s cool as erich

[liv]

Hi there bro! Glad you found my real blog; the other one is just an attempt to look serious and professional (don't laugh), but this is where all my friends hang out and where I actually talk about my life.

What are you doing for Pesach, anyway? (Answer by email or Skype if you'd prefer.)