Crowd-sourcing the wedding planning

[liv]

Congratulations to angelofthenorth and NZ on their respective engagements to lovely men!

One thing about being engaged (I don't know if it will happen to you guys) is that I find I'm attending weddings with my note-taking brain switched on. I spent the whole of Saturday thinking, hm, that's a good idea, maybe we should do that, or, hm, that works really well for them but it wouldn't suit us, or very occasionally, hm, I don't really like that, let's not do that. And next week jack and I are attending a wedding workshop for mixed faith couples (thanks to lethargic_man for bringing it to my attention). The main reason for this is because I want to meet Jewish people who are religiously committed enough to attend community-oriented workshops and also in serious relationships with non-Jewish partners. But I figure it'll help if I show up with some idea of what I'm expecting our wedding to look like, as a starting place for discussion.

Part of my trouble is that I never really included "marriage" in my life plans, so I never fantasized about what my wedding would be like. And it seems inappropriate for this particular relationship to start from a religious framework (either Jewish or Christian), so I almost have a blank slate. I should note that I don't think it's inappropriate in general for mixed couples to use some religious elements in their ceremonies, I just don't want to do so.

As usual when I can't decide things, I appeal to the internet! Please express some opinions on these issues. Don't worry, we won't just democratically do whatever you suggest, so don't bother reassuring us that it's completely up to us and we can do whatever makes us happy. I'm asking because I think it would really help to know your reasons for why something seems like a good idea or a bad idea, both from the practical point of view of organizing it and from your own subjective ideas about what sort of things you would enjoy / appreciate as a guest.

The main principles I'm working on here are: I don't want to be a princess for the day, I don't want anything excessively elaborate or ostentatious, and I don't need it to be planned and coordinated down to the last detail of the table decorations matching the wedding stationery. Rather, my main aim is for my friends to have a good time, with a degree of formality that will make it feel solemn and real and provide dressing up opportunities for those who like that sort of thing, but without the formality and the ceremony taking over the event.

The date
We've almost settled on the idea of having a really minimal civil wedding on our anniversary, 29^th February, and then a formal public ceremony (with no legal consequences) on approximately 20^th May. I'm still not completely convinced this isn't a stupid plan, though. I feel rather embarrassed at being at all sentimentally attached to a particular day in the calendar, especially if it means splitting up the wedding so that we can have the benefits of decent amounts of daylight, a hope of sunshine and a time that's convenient in relation the academic year, without being in high season.

The other big downside of 20^th May is that it's during the Omer, the period between Passover and Pentecost when you're not supposed to have joyful celebrations. In some ways I don't care, because it's not going to be a Jewish wedding. But it's still inappropriately celebratory for a solemn period of the year which I do still care about, and also some of my religious Jewish friends might have a problem with attending during that period. (The following Sunday is Pentecost itself, and I can't do the first half of June because I have commitments related to university exams, and waiting any longer than that puts us slap in the middle of peak season.)

The venue
We want a big place where we can fit lots and lots of our friends, and we want the wedding to take place in Cambridge or the vicinity. Ideally somewhere old and pretty (but not a church!), and disabled accessible is non-negotiable.

One option is Trinity College, jack's alma mater. However Trinity are being a bit difficult about actually communicating with us; they won't tell us whether it's even hypothetically possible to book a room unless we give them a very detailed order of service, exact numbers and further basically irrelevant details. Plus they take weeks to reply to emails. They've also said that no events are possible during May because it's a "Quiet" period for students to revise for exams. I don't know if we can negotiate with them on the basis that we want a fairly quiet event for a couple of hours on Sunday morning, not a loud party going on into the small hours of the night. I don't know if it's worth going back to our original plan of getting married on a weekday in February to get round this issue.

Another option is the Guildhall, where several friends have had good experiences and rumour has it that it's not unreasonably expensive. But so far they do not seem to be great at answering emails either. It's certainly less personally meaningful to jack.

The reception
Most probably we'll have the reception at my parents' place. They have lots of space, a pretty garden, and lots of experience of running big events. The main downside is that it may be logistically awkward to move all the guests from central Cambridge to a village five miles away, though there is a lot more parking than in the city centre! The other thing is that it might feel more like my place than ours; still, it's traditional to get married in the bride's place, and if we do the ceremony at Trinity and the reception at my parents' then it's pleasingly balanced.

Even if we do end up having the wedding in May we can't just assume it will be dry and sunny, so most probably we'd need to hire a marquee. Food-wise we'd probably do a giant buffet so that everyone can take the food that they like and that suits their principles and digestive systems. But definitely make sure to provide places to sit down and consume the food, because having to juggle plates and glasses and stuff is just annoying, and some people don't have the physical capacity to stand up for a significant length of time. For people who have particularly complicated dietary requirements (eg multiple dietary exclusions, strictly kosher), we'll probably need to prepare specific plates marked for those particular guests, but that's a minor detail I don't feel like sorting out at this stage.

The timing
I like the idea of a morning wedding. Ceremony in the morning, not insanely early but say late morning. I don't intend to spend four hours getting dressed anyway! Then we could have a lunch reception / wedding breakfast, rather than an evening one, and people would be able to have a full afternoon of socializing before leaving at about 6 o'clock. That would mean that people wouldn't get home too late given that it'd be Sunday evening, and also give us the evening to ourselves to start married life together, rather than just collapsing from exhaustion. Is this too ridiculously unconventional, though?

The dress
OMG angst. I don't want to wear white (or off-white or ivory or cream or ecru or anything like that), because I hate the symbolism and because pale colours don't suit me. I also don't want a dress which looks obviously like a Wedding Dress, but would greatly prefer to have a dress I can wear to other formal events. So nothing that requires several people to get me into and out of it! Also I don't like the style of wedding dresses currently fashionable, which are nearly all off the shoulder and clingy and I'm fairly certain wouldn't suit me. So kind of more like what's described as a "prom dress" or even a "mother of the bride dress".

I am torn between getting something custom-made, which would cost serious money but be incredibly wonderful, and getting something off-the-peg, but a few notches classier than anything I'd normally contemplate buying, and getting it altered to fit me absolutely perfectly. I don't know how to go about either of these things, though. Any recommendations of shops or tailors or decision-making plans would be most gratefully received!

A while ago I was having girly discussions with hadassah and she pointed me to this custom wedding dress site, which I'm somewhat tempted by if I'm going to go down the route of spending serious money on a dream outfit. But if I'm going to do that (or any kind of tailormade thing) I need to make a commitment to it pretty soon because I'd need a year's lead-in minimum. I'm really, really prevaricating, though, because on the one hand a dress seems like a completely stupid thing to spend major amounts of money on, but on the other I am sort of tempted by the idea of something that would really really make the most of my features, and (because it wouldn't look too obviously weddingy) would in some ways be an investment. elemy's dress at the weekend has tipped the balance in the direction of something awesome, because she had a copy made of a ball dress her grandmother wore which is currently in the Bath costume museum, and was seriously the most beautiful and perfect for her thing ever, really outstanding even by the standards of beautiful wedding dresses.

I have a bit of a lack of positive image of what I want, though, which is an obstacle for both shopping and custom ordering! A bright / deep colour. Probably ankle-length but no longer, because anything with a train is obviously wedding-y (and also impractical)! A cut which emphasizes my hourglassy shape (ie flatters both breasts and hips), but I don't quite have the vocabulary to describe the sort of cut I mean. Um, a waist that's actually on my waist (not empire-line or um, thingy, low-waisted?), a full skirt that flares outwards. Some cleavage is probably good but there's definitely a limit which would feel like too much. The more I think about this the more I think I want something at least somewhat period, though... I haven't quite figured out which period.

Also does it make more sense for jack to get something properly matched to my outfit (which means money and hassle but would probably look fantastic!) or just hire an ordinary morning suit and still look fantastic, but less outstandingly amazing? I don't know. It's all complicated!

I'm pretty much decided to wear minimal or quite possibly no makeup. I don't wear makeup, and I don't want to spend a lot of time or money on something that would just make me feel uncomfortable and unnatural. I do appreciate that a small amount of makeup (eg subtle lipstick, natural blusher and possibly mascara) will make the photos come out better, but I also don't want to support the idea that women have to wear facepaint in order to be formally attired. I also don't want a fantastically elaborate hairstyle, but I'll probably have a neaten up and trim the week before. Maybe.

A veil would be cool, especially if it means that we can do the thing where jack checks I'm not my sister. But nothing huge and impractical, I think.

The ring
A plain, unornamented band feels more like a wedding ring to me than anything fancy. (That's one of the things that's connected to Jewish culture though not particularly theological.) Also I'd be more likely to be able to wear it while working with my hands and not find it a nuisance. Probably white gold, because I like the colour of silver but I'd want something durable for a wedding ring. As with the dress I really have no idea how much I want to spend on it; in some ways it's a big important thing so should be worth some investment, but in other ways spending serious money on bits of metal seems silly. I'm not sure if I'll go all the way with Jewish tradition and wear the ring on my right forefinger (though I think even in traditional Jewish weddings, the ring is usually put on that finger but then changed to the left ring finger for general wear). Or look for a ring that could qualify as "both round and square" as some of the texts specify. That would be sheer geekery, mind you; it's a historical Sephardi thing rather than something that people I know actually do!

jack doesn't want a ring as he wouldn't wear it. I want to give him a really nice pocket / fob watch instead, but I don't know where to start looking for such a thing, or again how much is sensible to spend.

The ceremony
I have some ideas, but they're extremely inchoate. I sort of want some elements of a Jewish wedding without pretending it's something it isn't. A canopy seems like a nice idea, because I like the symbolism of creating a home which provides shelter but is open and welcoming to guests. I want some kind of formal contract including decisions about what to do financially and practically in the event of a divorce, and I want it to be part of the ceremony. Partly because given my background that would make me feel properly married, and partly because it fits better with my idea of marriage to be pragmatic and plan for the future rather than just assuming that true love will magically make everything ok.

I'm allergic to vows, especially vague, sentimental ones where you can't be sure if you're keeping them or not. I don't want to promise that the marriage will be ended only by death, because although I hope that we will be married for the rest of our lives, I don't want to commit us to staying together if it turns out that continuing the relationship is making us unhappy. (It annoys me that this seems to be a compulsory part of a civil wedding, given we have a legal and social system where divorce is accepted.)

There should be some kind of declaration of what we mean by marriage, though. I don't like the Christian one (even if you take out references to God and Jesus), and the Jewish one includes "according to the law of Moses and Israel" and I don't think that would be appropriate given that jack isn't subject to that law. But it's generally considered to be tacky to write your own formula, and I'm not sure that borrowing a random one I like from a religion or culture that neither of us belong to is better!

Maybe asking a friend or two to officiate would add something to it. I don't know if that is too much like fake religion, though. I have a soft spot for the Quaker idea where only the couple are allowed to enact the marriage, as no intermediary has the power to do that. I'm also so used to taking over and running ceremonies that I'm in danger of doing that, but I think that's probably too much role confusion, I shouldn't try to be the bride and the officiant at the same time!

Music
I really have no strong views about music. I don't want stupid cliché bits of classical music, and we don't really have "our song". What I would probably most like would be a group of friends who are talented that way singing something polyphonic. Dunno though.

Speeches
The traditional wedding speeches are sexist and often stupid. I'm the most experienced public speaker of all the immediate family, and I'm damned if I'm going to keep my mouth shut because of some stupid tradition about women not speaking in public! I like the idea of friends and family telling stories about us, but not if they're going to do it in a way that's cringey, either through being unpleasantly embarrassing or through treating it as hilarious that married people are expected to have sex. But I don't want to be all po-faced about trying to control the content of speeches. I mean, I do have a sense of humour, after all; I just don't find it funny to imply that women are stupid and marriage is a trap for men, which seems to be the expectation for wedding speeches.

I have this idea that we could have an open mic event and anyone who wanted to could stand up and say a few words, with an MC who would humorously but firmly cut them off if they rambled too much. But I don't know if that would work for the actual reception, or if it would be better saved for the more intimate trip with friends instead of a honeymoon. Or if that's inherently a stupid idea!

Cake
Mm, cake. Cake is good! I hope I can get my little sister the chef to make the cake, cos that would be awesome.

OK, that grew to giant proportions. I'll stop brainstorming at you for a bit! I think part of my reaction to elemy's wedding is that I am sort of feeling that I'm depriving jack of the simple grandeur of a mainstream C of E (style) English wedding. I have ideological objections, sure, but there is something about it that speaks to the heart, if only because it has such strong emotional associations. So I need to find something pretty wonderful and personal to us, because it won't have that weight of repetition to make it meaningful.

Comments

A miscellany of responses

[rmc28]

On bring-and-share buffet: obviously I think this is a great idea, because it's what we did :-) Ask your guests to label carefully.

On transport: my cousin got married last summer, and her parents laid on coaches between Lincoln (the nearest town of any size where most guests were staying) and the venue (in the middle of Lincolnshire countryside. There was parking at the venue, but the coach made it much easier. They also sorted out a choice (!) of return coaches, so those who were tired early could go home at a sensible time and those who wanted to DANCE ALL NIGHT (ahem) could do so.

Dress: I wore a traditional Indian wedding dress, with matching bangles, earrings and tiara, all from eBay. The outfit suited my colouring and figure, and my general approach to fancy outfits. I was inspired by my best friend and his sister (their mother is Indian, their father British). Tony had a suit made to match my dress bought through a clothing store Ayesha recommended in Wembley. I've never worn my dress since, but he's made good use of the suit.

(These days with a more raised consciousness, I worry a bit about having been imperialist & appropriative, as we have only the most tenuous connections to India. But I've never seen any other wedding gear so appropriate to us, as it were.)

I deliberately wore no makeup, though I did have a nice facial before having my hair put up prettily. I never wear makeup and I didn't want to look a stranger on my wedding photos.

Quaker weddings are lovely: a university friend got married that way (and they had a bring-and-share reception which gave me the idea for ours), and more recently my mother and stepfather had a Quaker wedding. I like the scope for people to stand up and say nice things about the couple "as they are so moved" after the simple vows have been exchanged.

Speeches: again, drawing on my mother's remarriage, they had a time for speeches at the reception, where all guests were welcome to speak if they wished, but they were asked to let my stepfather's sister know in advance. She sorted out a sensible order and acted as MC on the day, calling us each in turn to the microphone. And my mother spoke, of course :-)

[liv]

Ooh, thank you! I particularly appreciate the benefit of your experience given that you've actually done this sort of thing. I was thinking a catered buffet actually; I think with all the dietary requirements guests need to be able to have full information so they can make a decision about whether the food's acceptable and that's just not possible with bring-and-share. I definitely agree that clear labelling is essential, though.

It might well make sense to provide coaches from Cambridge to Shelford, and quite possibly back again. That is a fairly minor expense compared to the great increase in convenience! Also I kind of like the idea of transporting the whole wedding party en masse.

In many ways my perfect wedding dress is a salwar kameez. I love that style, it suits my figure, it's possible to have gorgeous bright colours without spending insane amounts of money, and it'd be practical and I could wear it again. Also a dupatta would double as a veil, which could then be rearranged to look less weddingy the rest of the time. But yeah, consciousness and appropriation and all that jazz. I know some people think it's fine and some people think it's really awful; even though there's no right answer to this issue, erring on the side of not offending people might be best.

I kind of feel the same about borrowing Quaker elements for the ceremony. I mean, I think Quakers are awesome, and they're right about a lot of things including their attitude to marriage, but I am clearly not a Quaker. I'd have to be a lot more actively involved in social justice activism before I would feel comfortable appropriating Quaker bits.

Good point about the speeches; I think it makes sense to invite anyone who wants to speak to do so, but plan in advance rather than springing it on people as a surprise. That would lead to better speeches!

[synecdochic]

For the ring -- both platinum or titanium (for the pricey end) and surgical stainless steel (for the non-pricey end) have the look of silver while still being durable. White gold is fairly soft and malleable, so if you plan on wearing the ring all the time and work a lot with your hands, you might need to have it repolished/resurfaced now and then! (My engagement ring is a simple white gold band with diamonds channel-set in it, and the shank of it is definitely showing the wear.) We'll likely be going with surgical stainless for our wedding rings -- sure, they're only like $40 on the high end, but they'll last forever!

For the ceremony -- if you want, drop me an email and I'll send you the ceremony I tend to use when I marry people (performing the wedding, I mean, not that I've been married multiple times before!) It might offer some ideas.

[liv]

OK, that's really interesting to know that white gold isn't as tough as I think it is. I like the idea of steel, because it's functional rather than being expensive for the sake of making a point. I'll have to investigate where one gets steel rings in this country.

I also love the idea of basing something on your ceremony. Dreamwidth is definitely a cult(ure) that we belong to. Could you send it to my DW address? Thank you so much for offering that. Yay Dreamwidth family!

[pensnest]

I realise I'm just a stranger who happens to subscribe to your DW, but I like weddings, so…

Have you had a look at 'Offbeat Bride'? It's a rather fun site with weddings that don't follow the norm, might give you some ideas (and if you're in the mood for wedding-y stuff, it's fun to browse).

For the logistics of moving people from central Cambridge to your parents' place, might it be worth hiring a bus? My sister got married in the middle of London, and had a big red Routemaster to take most of the guests from ceremony to reception (you've never seen such a fancy crowd disembark from a bus!), and parking in the middle of Cambridge is indeed hideous.

I see synecdochic has already mentioned that white gold isn't a particularly durable choice. Dealers in second-hand/antique jewellery might well have pocket/fob watches.

Your dress ideas sound lovely—how about a fabulous corset, or is that not your style?

Speeches wise, I once went to a wedding where the guests were supposed to stand up at the reception and say a few words, but it resulted in a lot of silence… it would probably be as well to arm your more trusted friends and relations with the expectation that you'd like some spontaneous stuff, so that they can prepare something they'd like to say. Maybe have a couple of formal speeches from whoever are the most appropriate people—wedding speeches don't *have* to be grisly—and then open the mic to the floor?

It sounds as though you are well on the way to having a wedding that will be wonderful and personal to you.

[liv]

Thank you so much for all these great resources. That's super, super helpful! Yay Offbeat Bride, I think I could have a lot of fun with that.

elemy had a Routemaster bus to take the guests the (relatively short) distance from the church to the college where she held the reception. It was so incredibly cool that it made me want one, but I don't want to be a total copy-cat! Also they're not great for wheelchair users or anyone else with bulky mobility aids, and they're the people who most need transport provided, so I am not sure that the coolness factor is enough to outweigh that.

I started finding cool watches on the site that lavendersparkle pointed me to. I don't know if I want a real antique or something more Maker / Steampunk; the latter might be more jack's style. Have to consult with him on this one.

If I do a custom-made dress, or even if I don't, I am seriously considering a corset. I have the figure for it, and the faint glimmerings of girly nature that I possess have always sort of longed for one, so what better occasion?

You're right about wedding speeches; I should relax and assume my friends won't be tasteless and awful. I think you're right that asking people to be completely spontaneous won't work, but I do like the idea of asking the people who enjoy giving speeches and feel they have something to say, rather than imposing on someone. A friend of mine had a guy going round with a video camera and asking people to say something, which was quite sweet, but not very public or ceremonial. In some ways not having speeches seems appealing, because it gives people a chance to continue their conversations (and food!) without being interrupted. But a good speech can really enhance an occasion.

[kass]

I have many thoughts about this, as you might imagine. :-) If you want to natter at me via email, btw, feel free -- you know that this kind of conversation is my idea of a good time!

(More soon -- my sweetie has just put dinner on the table.)

[liv]

Yay, thank you so much. I might well take you up on that. It would probably help me a lot to noodle about ritual stuff with someone knowledgeable but not implacably opposed to mixed marriages.

[kerrypolka]

Hello! I don't know you, but would like to! (Although I am also planning a mixed wedding, this is not a demand to talk to you about ritual things; I just like people who like talking about it.)

[redbird]

I'd argue against makeup for you, both because of the messages it can involve and because, since you don't normally wear any, it's likely to make you at least a little uncomfortable. That wouldn't be good even from the viewpoint of photography (though I should note that I don't generally like the idea of prioritizing photography over the actual event and experience of the participants at the time). (I figure Jack, and anyone else present, can make their own decisions.)

I don't think it's inherently tacky to write your own formula; if the pre-made ones don't fit, you may have to. And with your attitude, I suspect you won't be including bad or cliche'd poetry.

[liv]

Thank you, this is a really convincing argument. You're right that the photographs shouldn't be the priority, and you're right that feeling uncomfortable won't make me look better in photos, and you're right on a matter of principle. I was trying to be scrupulous in not assuming that makeup is bad because it's feminine, but basically it's not me. Now I feel much more confident in my original instinct not to bother.

I do have a soft spot for some bad poetry*, but if it does make its way into the ceremony I'll keep it out of the actual marriage formula. I've read a whole bunch of books where "and the couple wrote their own wedding vows" is shorthand for "they were really pretentious and tacky and not really worth knowing", but books aren't always true.

[*]

Laugh if you like: I believe in friendship,
I believe in the heart I'll find,
The heart I hope for, in hope so tender,
In joy, in sorrow, we'll be one in mind.

(My translation of Hebrew by Tchernikowsky; probably writing your own rhyming translation adds several points to the tack-o-meter...)

[kerrypolka]

I don't think it's inherently tacky to write your own formula

I agree with this; I'm planning to do so.

[ajnabieh]

I am the only one of my friends to have had a wedding (someone got dumped six weeks beforehand, but apart from that, my friends are not a marrying crowd), so I have only my own experience to offer. But here are some thoughts from what I did:

1. I had a Quaker wedding, but because I'm a Quaker. But the notion of marrying each other, and not being married by someone else, is very near and dear to my notion of marriage. (I kept saying to people while I was prepping the wedding "you should only have a wedding once you already have a marriage." My politics are weird.)

2. I bought my dress from a consignment shop, and had it altered. It was white, because I was cool with that set of associations. I've got an hourglass figure as well, and what I really wanted was a pleated bodice that came in tight around the waist, and then an A-line skirt--that is, I didn't want a big floofy thing. (My wife wanted a big floofy princess thing. I just made sure our fabrics matched and remained calm.) Here's what I wore. Additional funny shot. (Photo by a friend, not our photographer.) Maybe something like that in shape? (For contrast: what I wore while getting ready.)

3. Our wedding "started" at 11, but we didn't actually enter the meeting room until 11:20, because meh. But, yes, it can be done, especially if you don't have one friend doing two long-haired people's hair in updos.

4. We entered the meeting room to Allison Krause's Down In The River To Pray. I wept uncontrollably. Pretty much, you want something that's going to create a state in you, whatever state you want, for entering the venue/beginning the ceremony/marking time within it. Pick for that.

5. We made our guests take the city bus from wedding venue to reception venue, because we are didactic in our being-Brooklynites. BUT...if your ceremony doesn't have to be held in a particular place for religious/spiritual reasons, why not hold wedding and reception in the same location? Save yourself some drama. If we hadn't wanted booze and dancing, we probably just would have had the reception in the Meeting social room.

Good luck? I adore planning parties, so I had a ball planning ours. That said, my wife and I frequently promise each other that, even though we're going to have to get married at least one more time (to make it legal), we are never having a wedding ever again zomg no more wedding.

[ajnabieh]

Oh wow, this is a super long comment. Sorry!

[lavendersparkle]

For the food, find out what dietary requirements are likely and make sure the food is well labelled. (Mystery buffets of doom are my pet peeve.)

When we got married Alec bought a vintage morning suit and had it altered so that it fit him perfectly. Then again, Alec in general cares much more about clothes than I do, so his outfit cost more than mine (plus he was paying for labour whereas the labour on my dress was a gift).

For the ring, if you go with gold/platinum and don't want something custom made I would recommend Andrew R Ullmann in Hatton Garden. We bought my engagement and wedding rings there I think it was very good value. If you're looking for a plain band they'll get out a box of second hand rings in the metal you want and you can try them on and pick the one you want. I think my rings cost about half what they would have cost new in a high street shop.

[simont]

For the food, find out what dietary requirements are likely and make sure the food is well labelled. (Mystery buffets of doom are my pet peeve.)

Seconded! Though one of the nice things about the bring-and-share idea rmc28 mentions is that everybody gets to be sure there'll be something they can eat, because they'll have brought it.

[rho]

I'd say that you should go with what you and Jack want to do, and not try to talk yourselves out of it. If it's considered tacky or unconventional or whatever then so what? If it's right for you two then it's right. This isn't to say that the comfort and happiness of others isn't important, but for your wedding, this should definitely be subservient to your own comfort and happiness. Anyone who is likely to attend your wedding will be doing so because they're happy for you, and wanting for you to get the most out of the day will be connected to that happiness.

As for things like the dress, I'd use the standard three criteria for evaluating new purchases: do I want it, will I use it, can I afford it? If you're answering yes to all three, then go with the more expensive dress.

[liv]

Thank you, this is helpful. I don't really care about unconventional, but I'm just trying to poll my d-roll to find out if some things are unconventional for a good reason I haven't thought of for myself. Tacky, eh, I think in some ways doing something that is generally considered bad taste will in fact make the wedding worse, but you're right that if we love a particular embellishment then taste doesn't really matter.

I like your way of deciding whether to spend money. The thing is that I can afford really quite an elaborate dress / event / jewellery etc but I am trying to decide whether it's a good idea to spend a large proportion of my and jack's savings on mostly pointless things. I would probably enjoy having a £5000 dress, but would I enjoy it ten times as much as a £500 dress (or a hundred times as much as a £50 dress plus a lifetime's supply of cheap second-hand books...)?

[lethargic_man]

A few very brief points:

First, I'm sorry to say this, but putting anything Jewish into the ceremony is going to offend (people like) me.

And anyone who is frum enough to be bothered about your wedding being in the Omer is likely to be more offended by the fact of your wedding at all than the fact it's in the Omer. (See also above point.) (FWIW I've got my parents' ruby wedding anniversary this summer, which will most likely be their last big anniversary, so they're going to make a big deal of it, slap bang in the middle of the three weeks (though I've just checked and their original wedding was at least on the twelfth of Av).)

Finally, you might like to have a word with rysmiel and papersky; I really liked what they did with their wedding.

[kerrypolka]

On the other hand, it will greatly cheer people like me! *g*

[tig_b]

I think that the main point is that it is your wedding - so do what you and Jack want. And there is nothing wrong in spending a bit extra on the dress!

On the dress/suit - if Jack is happy to rent/buy off the peg then the 'usual' thing here is to have a matching cravat.

I don't have much time today but could post more suggestions later? (Baha'is have to have the legal bit and their Baha'i wedding on the same day, but apart from that and a short statement both say we design our own. So I've been to a lot of different types of wedding.)

[liv]

I would definitely appreciate hearing about Baha'i style ideas, thank you.

Thanks for the encouragement about clothes. I am basically scared of clothes. I will probably spend more than I would usually spend on an outfit, because a wedding is a pretty unique occasion. The question, though, is how much more? About twice as much as a standard party dress, or about 10 times as much?

[emperor]

I am being opinionated, because I think this post wants opinionated answers. I'm still going to say that it's your wedding, and you should do what you both think is best, though. My one standard bit of wedding advice I give people is: "ignore the wedding advice people give you" :-)

I know it's annoying, but you may find you get better answers out of both Trinity and the Guildhall by phoning them and/or arranging to meet them face-to-face. Some venues just seem rubbish at replying to emails, whereas they'll happily sort things out over the phone :-(

Where do you expect people coming from out of town to be sleeping afterwards? If they can ditch their car there before the reception and plausibly get to it afterwards, that'll make the drinkers happier. I think that might be a problem with the finish-at-6 plan - if you have got people coming from out of town who aren't planning on driving home that evening, it's a sort of odd time for them to have things stop.

jack presumably has a view on what he wants to wear; I decided I didn't like morning suits that much, so went with the strictly-incorrect dinner jacket approach instead. He needn't match you very closely to have it look coherent; we had waistcoats + bow-ties made such that the colour looked good with the bridesmaids dresses.

I'm interested as to what the problem with jack wearing a ring is, but that's getting off-topic here :)

The Christian tradition is also that the couple celebrate the sacrament of marriage - the priest is there to pray for them (and make sure they do the right things in the right order), but doesn't actually contract the marriage or anything like that.

Speech-wise, there are very few people who can actually ad-lib a good speech, so I'd be tempted to have a set of people who you want to speak (this set might overlap somewhat with the traditional set), and give them strict instructions on e.g. duration. If you talk to them about the sort of thing you're after, they'll probably manage.

[lavendersparkle]

The bride and groom don't need to match at all. Alec and I both chose the outfits that we wanted and the only concession we made to matching was that Alec wore as his buttonhole a rose of the same type as were in my bouquet. Similarly, none of the ushers/best man wore matching outfits. The were all in their own morning dress with just matching red carnation button holes and it looked fine.

[naath]

Christian (ETA: I mean CATHOLIC, stupid brain; I know sod all about any one else's Christian traditions) weddings are often in the morning; if one is going to have a nuptual mass one is meant to fast before taking communion (hence "wedding breakfast" even if it's at noon) and this leads to early weddings 'cos otherwise everyone is STARVING. All the family weddings I've been to have had an early wedding, and sit-down "breakfast" (lunch), and then an into-the-evening party with buffet supper at some point; this does not mean you have to do it that way and ending at 6pm sounds entirely sensible (especially on a school night).

Getting people to bring+share food is a good idea, although might need more organising than "bring something" 'cos otherwise you run the risk of 20 trifles. Guests ought to be capable of labelling food with what is in it, but people who don't keep kosher probably won't know if it is (or to what degree it might be) and there might need to be Advice about What To Put On The Label. I suspect you'll get lots of meat unless you specifically request all-vegetarian.

Dresses: a nice corset-top and skirt flatters the hourglass figure, 1950's clothing is also very hourglassy http://www.vivienofholloway.com/ make nice dresses at not unreasonable prices for nice dresses. Most Victorian clothing is good at keeping the waist where it ought to be, Tudor styles squish the bust different but are also hourglass-y, Regency is Right Out if you hate the Empire Waist, 17th/18th century stuff tends to go for the over-the-top frills of d00m, Mediaeval stuff lacks the defined waist. You probably didn't want to know that.

I think if you go for something clearly period it's worth considering whether jack wants to wear something that thematically matches (but that'll cost a lot more than a mourning suit; and might look Silly, men's fashions have changed a whole lot in the last 500 years). Otherwise you can "match" by getting a waistcoat for jack in the same colour as your dress (or, if you have the dress made, in the same fabric). Or not match at all, loads of couples don't.

Facepaint is optional of course :-) If you want it, it is worth practising getting it on how you want it (especially if you don't wear it often). Similarly with hair, if you are going to do something unusual (for you) with it then practice. If you are hiring someone to do these things for you get them to do a practice run, and be firm about what YOU want not what they think is "good for weddings" or whatever.

Are you planning anything organised for the afternoon? Like, say, a disco? I guess most people are quite good at "hang around and talk to the other nice guests for a few hours" though.

[kerrypolka]

I bought the dress I will wear at my wedding from Vivien of Holloway! :D

[kerrypolka]

I have so much today about the other stuff here, but:

And next week jack and I are attending a wedding workshop for mixed faith couples

Is this the April 10 one in London? Ewan and I are going, if so, and it would be great to get together and talk about Jewish-secular atheist wedding stuff after. Of course it would be great to get together sometime and do that anyway, if you guys are up for it!

[liv]

Yes, the very same! I'm so excited that you guys are going to be there, we should totally use the excuse to have a good old wedding planning confab. Yay.

[karen2205]

I suppose the other option timing wise is to go for the other side of the peak season next year, but before it becomes too wintery, so say September/October time. I don't know whether that works any better than a possibly religiously inappropriate date but one at a time of year when it's reasonably likely to be warm.

A late morning wedding with a 6pm or so finish sounds sensible for a Sunday.

I'm sure there's someone geeky enough within your social circle who can come up with a spreadsheet for car sharing, which will help some guest get from central Cambridge out to your parents' house. For the rest you could hire a minibus (if there's someone who can drive it) or a proper coach with a driver.

With a marquee you may need to be aware of the ground/floor covering (if there is one) in relation to mobility impaired guests. Will you have frail/very elderly relatives attending? Are they going to be warm/cool enough in a marquee and able to cope with a buffet meal? Would they be able to retreat inside if it all got too much for them?

Dress wise - have you seen anything you've liked so far in the shops/online? I'd say the way to make a decision on this is to get a good feel for what already exists commercially so you know if it's suitable for you/whether you see anything you actually like before deciding anything else. If you can get a dress that's ankle length, shoulder covering, good for an hourglass figure, period, in a deep, rich colour, that fits well off the shelf, then you're sorted. If you can't see anything vaguely suitable, then you can go for something custom made in the knowledge that while expensive it's actually worthwhile because you know what you want doesn't already exist.

I don't see any real problem with you being both the bride and the officiant beyond it not being the done thing and that's as good a reason as any for departing from the tradition! I can see why you might not want to do this and just concentrate on one thing at a time, but I don't see why you necessarily need an officiant. I don't see what's tacky about writing your own declaration of marriage.

When I've thought about marriage in a slightly more realistic manner than I did when I was small, I've thought that marital vows would mean a lot more if they were written by the couple to be meaningful to them and learned off my heart by the couple and delivered directly from one to the other without the standard question and answer format of the English civil ceremony or the CoE one.

Re speeches, I've thought since I was about 12 that if I marry I want to speak at the reception for basically the same reasons you've outlined around sexist assumptions about women speaking in public. About the only thing I'd say is the acoustics in a marquee can be a bit odd and hearing your own voice through a microphone is odd for those of us who don't use microphones regularly.

[liv]

Thanks, Karen. It's good to hear from you because you instinctively understand how I feel about gender expectations, and because you're very practical!

September is a good time to get married in general, but difficult for me because of both academic and religious commitments. And we really want to give about a year's notice once the date is fixed, so that friends who come from other continents have a chance of being able to make it. More than a year is just messing around, much less would probably be too short notice for that reason.

A car-sharing spreadsheet is a good idea. I'm thinking seriously of hiring a couple of big vehicles, though.

Good point about the marquee. There are going to be some older people there, and yes, I hope it'll be possible for some people to go into the house if they don't want to be outdoors. It's just that the house, while big, would be a bit of a squeeze for fitting everybody into the same space. I think coping with a buffet should work if there's somewhere to sit down and eat once people have taken their food, and if there isn't a mad scrum, which I think can be got round with a bit of organizing. And yes, I'm aware of odd acoustics; that's partly why I'm leaning towards having the ceremony somewhere like the Guildhall and just the reception in the garden.

Your idea of looking for dresses online is brilliant, thank you! Online shopping is much less painful than trailing round the high street, and, well, I've found a dress that is not quite perfect but pretty stunning for £20 on eBay, and that was with a fairly cursory browse. If I set myself a budget of a couple of hundred pounds and put some time into it, I think I can do very well indeed. I'm prepared to have alterations done to make something fit perfectly, but I think I can find something that I'll love as much as a several thousand pound custom-made outfit.

I think bride and officiant at the same time probably doesn't work. My experience of doing ritual stuff suggests that it really helps to have a separate person doing the stage managing from the one who's actually the subject of the ceremony. We clearly don't need an officiant, but I'm trying to decide whether it'll feel more solemn and meaningful if we have one, mainly.

Thanks for the encouragement about writing out own formula. I think we probably will, I was just put off by the stereotypes around that!

[atreic]

*sympathy* over the date / solemn times of the year thing. We only ended up with about 1 possible weekend that wasn't Lent or Exam Term...

I went to a pre-wedding party (think hen do, but with more care and thought ;-) ) where there was an 'open mic' type time for people to say nice things about the bride-to-be, and the couple, and marriage in general. It worked quite well, because it was a small group and we were tipsy enough for reduced inhibitions but not pissed.

I didn't speak at my wedding breakfast (I was a lot younger and had thought about stuff less then) but I did do the thank-yous at the ceilidh, so I got some time with the mic. Have a time limit that you warn people about beforehand. 3 - 5 minutes per speaker???

If you want friends to sing together, they probably need to practise together. This can be done on the morning of the wedding if the wedding isn't too early and you have really talented friends, but otherwise you'll need singing friends that live near each other / can spare two weekends. Perhaps you could hire one of the singing groups in Cambridge - the sort of students who would audition for balls? [I have a cousin who's an undergrad who sings, but I don't know if she has any connections - I could ask if you were interested]

The guildhall is a good venue for an all evening piss up, I'm not sure it's a great venue for a smaller morning ceremony, and they used to be 'you must book this for the whole day at weekends'. If Trinity are useless, Queens' old hall is quite nice, and no less random than the guildhall (and probably cheaper and more organised?)

I think your ideas are great :-)

[Sorry for the late comment, I'm rubbish at reading dreamwidth and only notice when the LJ links turn up]

[liv]

Thanks for these helpful thoughts! And don't at all worry about lateness, it's my fault for forgetting to do the links roundup, and besides I like it when discussions keep going for more than the standard couple of days.

Hm, if we can only have the Guildhall for a whole day that might not be so good. I will continue to chase them up. As for other colleges, I was assuming we're not allowed to get married in a college we have no personal connection with. But I shouldn't give up before even investigating the possibility.

Singing: yeah, this is a problem because my friends are quite geographically scattered. Thanks for pointing that one out. I have some friends in mind who have been singing SAB together for years, but they probably still wouldn't want to do this particular thing unrehearsed. I don't think I want random people singing, I would just as rather have recorded music if I can't involve people who are important to me directly. Thanks for the suggestions, though.

[ixwin.livejournal.com]

I don't think there is a legal requirement to vow a lifetime commitment. I'm fairly sure I didn't (for the same reasons as you) and this link seems to back me up http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/sccwebsite/sccwspages.nsf/LookupWebPagesByTITLE_RTF/Choice+of+legal+wording?opendocument

[liv]

Oooh, that's really interesting. I only looked up Cambridge council as they'll be the ones to register our marriage, and they strongly implied that the bare minimum included Marriage, according to the law of this country, is the union of one man and one woman, voluntarily entered into for life, to the exclusion of all others. But if that's not the case everywhere it does seem worth asking explicitly if we can leave that line out.

[angelofthenorth]

I would suggest that wrt vows "as long as we both shall live" isn't quite the same as "death do us part".

We wrote our own vows for Sept, and my intent was openness, but also realising that no longer being alive isn't quite the same as physical death - dementia for example, which is in the family, can be a form of death.