Wedding dress

[liv]

So angelofthenorth's wedding made me realize that this getting married plan is actually happening. I don't know of any weddings in my social circle between hers and ours. (There may be some that haven't been decided yet, of course!) But anyway, our intentionally long engagement, which was supposed to allow time for planning and decision-making without too much time-pressure, has nearly all gone. There's only half a year left, which means we need to come to some definite decisions right now, in order to allow people we're paying to do complicated things to book us in.

The venue and catering are sorted, the celebrants have agreed in principle to be present. The two big things that aren't even decided are the dress and the un-honeymoon. (There are a couple of things where we've made a general decision but need to fix up the details, notably the guest-list and the artwork.) But, dress.

Having spent a delightful several months poking around on the internet for pretty dresses, I've ended up buying a bunch of party dresses that were irresistibly cheap, but not quite suitable for getting married. I'm calling the collection my trousseau. In terms of the actual dress, I've narrowed it down to three options:

Option one is to go for, in fact, the very first of these that I found, because it ended up being the closest to the kind of dress I had in mind. It's something like this, a more mauve sort of colour but that style. It comes from a company called Cherlone, who make prom dresses which go up to plus sizes, in fairly classic styles rather than up to the minute trendy. As far as I can see they are wholesalers only, so you find their stuff on peer-to-peer online marketplaces such as eBay. The advantage of this option is that the dress cost me all of £25 including P&P, and it's very much the sort of dress I imagined for myself, bright, shimmery colours, elaborate and full-length, with a close-fitting but not strapless top and a full, layered skirt. The downside is that the dress is basically made out of plastic and even I, knowing nothing about clothes, can see that it's cheaply made. If I were on a really strict budget, I'd be absolutely over the moon to have found this, because it's definitely a special occasion dress of the kind I'm looking for, and there's very little else available that ticks all the same boxes (even at ten times the price!)

Option two is something from Dig for Victory, a really cool indie clothing designer that my brother found for me. They buy up vintage fabrics and recycle them into absolutely gorgeous but slightly quirky custom-made vintage style dresses. The advantage of that is that they seem to go in for the kind of style that really suits my figure, and it definitely fulfils my ethical requirements, having something made by an enthusiast out of vintage fabric. I really want to support that business! The downside is that the dresses aren't quite weddingy; the designer has said that she can adapt some of the designs to full length dresses, and she has some more classic fabrics available. But that would miss out on rather a lot of the point of buying from that company, if I end up with something totally classic instead of quirky, and if I get something specially made rather than coming from a standard template, it's going to add quite a lot on to the price.

Option three is a full custom gown with corset from Morua. I'm deeply grateful to emma for recommending me this company! When I was looking for corset-based gowns, I found amazingly elaborate stuff priced, entirely reasonably for the amount of fabric and labour, at several thousand pounds, and I found absolutely 100% authentic period stuff using only historical materials and techniques, both of which seem over-the-top even for a wedding. Oh, and completely tacky fetishwear things where the price was just too low for the stuff to have been ethically sourced or well made. Morua is making stuff that's classy enough for a once-in-a-lifetime dress, custom made but not completely stratospheric. The downside is that a dress like that is going to cost £6-700 minimum. I mean, plenty of people spend more than that on a wedding dress, and it's excellent value for tailormade in high quality fabrics, but still, eek!

I am leaning more and more towards Option Three, partly because everybody I've asked has raved about how great I would look in a corset. I think a Dig For Victory dress would end up being about half the price, once I start asking for a one-off design, and I'd probably end up buying specialist underwear to get the full effect. I really really want to support their awesome business model, though! I will add that I've made preliminary enquiries with both companies, and both have responded to me in a very professional way, speedy and courteous and generally seeming like the kind of people I want to do business with, so I can't decide on those grounds.

So, as usual when I am trying to decide things, I ask the internet. Should I go for the really shiny but scarily expensive Option Three? Or the medium priced, totally adorable Option Two (probably with an underwear-type corset, so it's still a cleavagey option)? Or the pretty and fun Option One, and spend the difference on good causes and / or stuff for the guests?

Plus, I need to find something for jack. I find it really sexist when the bride puts lots of money and effort into a marvellous dress, and the groom just hires a generic suit. Besides, we seem to be still living in a Beau Brummel world, where men's formal dress comes in various shades of grey or black, and is designed to look good on men who have the classic inverted triangle body shape, broad shoulders and slim waist, and even tailored I don't think that is going to really show jack to his best advantage. What I'm hoping for a is something along the lines of an eighteenth or early nineteenth century style frock coat, either an earlier justacorps or a slightly more recent but still very period cutaway coat. But I haven't had any success in finding such things; reenactment garb and stage costumes, yes, but not actual serious clothes. Also, steampunk. Steampunk is all very well, but I am pretty certain that something from an earlier era, Regency or earlier still, would work better for jack. Does anybody have any ideas?

Now I think of it, I'm not sure the naked icon is quite the thing for talking about clothes! But I don't have a better one.

Comments

[owlfish]

If you're willing to travel to Leicester for fittings (likely easier for you than me!), I can highly recommend the person who made my dress. She designs everything to order and I, being very handwavy about what I wanted, put myself in her hands and she proposed several things and I loved the results. Can email you with more details?

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Angrave-Designs/368641524223
http://www.angravedesigns.com/collection/

[liv]

Oh wow. What an incredibly amazing designer! I've sort of rejected something that elaborate; I was also considering Uptight Clothing at one point, but I came to the conclusion that I'm just not willing to spend that kind of money on a dress. Not because she isn't offering good value, but because in the absolute sense it's too much. I think your Angrave would come into a similar category, though looking at those pictures I'm kind of tempted again!

[owlfish]

Have emailed you more information just so you have it. Not that you need more choices!

[redbird]

Should that be "I need to find something for jack," or should it be "we need to find something" or "Jack needs to find something"? Agreed, both parties should get to wear something cool, but if it's sexist to pay a lot more attention to the bride's outfit, it's also sexist to assume that clothing is a woman's job, even when it's an adult man's clothing.

[liv]

*awkward hand gesture* Yeah, that's an extremely good point. The trouble is that I'm much better than jack at contacting strangers to ask about their services, and I'm somewhat better than he is at comparison shopping and just plain getting on with things (though we both have trouble with that skillset). I admit that it probably has something to do with sexism that we have these different skills, but it's not so much that I'm taking this on because I'm a girl, as because I'm likely to find the whole thing less painful and it will probably happen more efficiently if I do the preliminary steps. He's obviously going to have to make the final decision and turn up for the fittings as appropriate, I may be a control freak but I'm not that bad!

Also, jack is self-conscious about his body and appearance in ways I'm not. So he's likely to just put off thinking about the whole issue until it's too late to get anything but a badly fitting hired outfit, which in turn would make him even more self-conscious and awkward, and not achieve my goal of being approximately egalitarian in our approach to dressing up.

I completely admit that this state of affairs isn't very satisfactory, I don't want to seem as if I'm making excuses. But I also don't want to force jack to go through a long drawn-out process that he would find painful and unpleasant, just to prove that women in the abstract are equal to men in the abstract. I also haven't quite got used to referring to "us" as a unit, and I'm not sure it's actually desirable to do so. Often when I say "I want X" I really mean that the outcome of the discussion we've had has been X, but I'm talking about me because it's my journal.

[redbird]

*nod* This makes sense. The I/we phrasing thing you mention in the last paragraph never occurred to me.

[shreena]

I vote for option 3 (btw, your Morua link goes to Dig for Victory).

As someone not that girly, not that concerned with her appearance, etc, I kinda let myself get swept along by my parents' insistence that I get an expensive (c.£500) outfit for the evening and I'm not sure I would have done so left to my own devices but I don't regret it at all. I'm really glad that I spent the money on something that I really like.

[liv]

Thank you, I appreciate hearing your perspective given that we have a fairly similar approach to clothes in general. And also thanks for catching my bad link; I've done that a couple of times, tried to ask people if they like one site or the other and ended up pasting the same link twice.

[atreic]

Option 3 seems good (and, err, *blush*, less than I spent on my dress) Not sure if you're thinking corset-and-skirt or dress, but you could at least pretend that you'd get some use out of them in future as a two-piece, which is harder with a wedding dress ;-)

I can imagine Jack in some kind of velvet pirate shirt, but that might just be because I like velvet pirate shirts ;-)

[liv]

Yeah, another argument against something really really elaborate is that the more excessive it is the less chance there is I can repurpose it for other formal, but sub-wedding, occasions. I think separates is probably sensible, could wear a corset with, say, plain black velvet trousers.

Velvet pirate shirt, hm. It's a May wedding, and it may be too boiling hot for velvet by then, or then again it may not. I like velvet a lot, and I like pirate shirts a lot, but I'm not sure that velvet is the right material for a pirate shirt. Also if I'm wearing something very formal and tailored, I think jack needs something with a bit more structure to it. The trouble with velvet is that it's difficult to get it really well fitting, it tends to stretch and cling and not really hold its shape. Perhaps a velvet coat over a silk or even linen shirt?

[atreic]

Yes, or the skirt with a coloured top.

You're right, May is a funny time of year to guess the weather for. Silk shirts are good when it's hot and when it's cold!

*mmm, fantasy other-people's-wedding-planning*

[naath]

Stretchy clingy lycra type velvet is a VILE ABOMINATION UNTO NUGGAN (it's really hard to sew; also sweaty nasty to wear). A more structured cotton velvet could make a really nice coat/jacket though.

[liv]

See, this is why I really appreciate having friends who actually know about clothes! I don't quite have the vocabulary to describe why I'm not so keen on a gothy velvet shirt, but this is what I was trying to get at.

[ajnabieh]

I love options two and three, but I'd go with three--but that's more about personal style than anything. If spending the money isn't impossible, I'd say it's worth it, particularly if you think it's possible that the dress would be able to find a second life in your wardrobe. (I picked my dress, in part, because it can really easily be altered into a stand-alone top and a separate skirt. Now, I may have gotten too fat for it now, but the principle stands, and I may try to have it altered some day.)

Re: jack's suit: so you know any SCA/reenactor types? They might know something about where to get older styles made, or some good merchants.

[liv]

I'm finding it really hard to make decisions about budget, because it's not like I'm going to go hungry if I spend $1000 on a dress. The thing that's holding me back is that I don't really like the idea of what nanaya calls "the wedding-industrial complex", the assumption that getting married means pretending to be a princess even if you're a perfectly ordinary person. And a sort of vague guilt, that if I have enough money to splash on a fantastic dress, shouldn't I be giving that to charity rather than something that's only going to make my life better for one day? I definitely would feel better if I could convince myself that I might wear it again, even if it's only on the two or three most formal occasions in the next decade.

The thing about asking reenactors is that I'm not really looking for something that is, essentially, costume, I'm looking for actual clothes, made to a high standard and designed to be durable. I'm also not interested in highly authentic period gear, I'm quite happy for machine-sewing and modern fabrics and dyes to be involved. But I'm hoping that this post will bring out of the woodwork someone who has good contacts; both Dig for Victory and Morua were suggested by people who read my journal, I didn't at all find them on my own!

[naath]

Many re-enactors work to "clothing" rather than "costume" standards; although not all do, and a lot of the ready-made stuff around is really really bad (from just about every perspective) unless you are looking for military uniform. Unfortunately people doing good custom work for the re-enactment market can be hard to find, very expensive and very very busy.

[liv]

Busy just means that we need to get organized on this sooner rather than later! Expensive I can live with; I am willing to pay people a decent amount for their labour, on top of the cost of fabrics and overheads of running a business, but I don't really have enough knowledge of the market to be easily able to tell whether I'm paying for good quality, or just paying a premium because the thing I want is quite hard to find. But I'm glad that good custom period stuff for men actually exists at all (I was starting to doubt it!) even with all the caveats you've given here.

[naath]

I'd like to point you at http://www.jollydicey.co.uk/Home who do historical costumery based evening/wedding wear as well as reenactment and LARP work. I've seen their stuff, and it's not the sort of nit-picky accurate re-enactment quality that I wish I could do and know I can't; but it's shiny and nice. And they do men. But they are Not Cheap.

(Plus they are enthusiasts working in the UK; so the labour is as ethical as you could wish for, although I don't know anything about their fabric sources)

You could go for an off-the-peg corset-and-skirt from eg http://www.fairygothmother.com/ which would be cheaper but also probably fit a lot less well unless you are really lucky with the design. They have a Real Shop in London though so at least you can try stuff on.

[liv]

Oh my goodness thankyou, that was just the kind of retailer I was looking for and couldn't find anyone who caters to men. And yes, UK-based enthusiasts makes me feel a lot better about the whole ethical side, definitely. Seriously that's the first decent lead I've had and I've been googling for months.

Fairy Gothmother's stuff is lovely and very much to my taste, but she's just the most famous of a whole slew of expletive goth designers who count a mean-ish size 16 as "XL". There's little to nothing in their catalogue that I could even get into, and I know I won't look good squeezing myself into a skimpy 16 when I'm a generous 16, pushing 18 depending on the cut. I think off-the-rack goth stuff is basically not an option for someone of my figure; I keep buying clothes because I'm in love with a particular design and finding that, well, I can sort of just about get away with the largest size, but it doesn't look good, and I don't want to just about get away with my own wedding dress. (My Little Black Dress, which you may have seen, is in this category; gorgeous, but doesn't really fit across the bust, and I only get away with it at all because it has a foofy skirt which means it's ok on my hips.)

[naath]

FGM's corsetry goes up to 40" waist in some styles; but yes, their dresses are generally very small which is sad :(

Custom work would fit you at the bust and waist *at the same time* which is often hard to find in off-the-rack if you aren't small.

[liv]

Yeah, it's not just that I'm bigger than average, it's that I don't have standard proportions either. And I do love the idea of getting something tailored that really fits everywhere!

[emma]

Random opinion comment not strictly relevant to the topic at hand: I find it both sad, irritating, and infuriating when only small sizes are available (I don't consider 16 to be a "large" size, perhaps an "average" one. I'm some version of 14 or small 16 when my hips and lower parts are being considered, so this doesn't affect me personally, but I still have Righteous Feelings about it!). On the whole I think this is terribly unfair and of course all manufacturers and designers should run to actual proper plus sizes. I have another friend who runs the Kiss Me Deadly lingerie company (I swear not all of my friends are in the clothing business!), who sells a lot of her products in the Lulu & Lush/Fairy Gothmother shops, and she wrote about why the sizing for her stuff is so restrictive in a blog entry not too long ago.

[liv]

Yeah, it's a pain. I understand the blogger's point that it's not economic to stock the full range of sizes and cuts if you're a small indie outfit, of the kind I want to support. But 16 is pretty much the average size for women in the UK (it's certainly the median and ISTR it's close to the mode as well). It's a bit ridiculous not to stock 18 and 20! But it's true that both fancy lingerie and goth stuff aren't being marketed to a representative sample of the population, but rather to young, conventionally attractive people. (I'm very impressed that you know the Kiss Me Deadly person too; if I do decide to go for a less structured dress I'm probably going to end up getting underwear from that company!)

[emma]

Yeah; it makes financial sense and having it all explained from the other side does throw a different perspective on it, and I get it. I still don't think it's right, but I don't know how small indie outfits can do anything to fix it without basically going out of business.

Hee, so either way you look at it, you'll quite probably end up wearing something by one of my friends! I love the way social connections work :) Both Gerry from Morua and Catherine from KMD are people I've got to know socially first then discovered they make beautiful clothes. I have impressive friends!

I find KMD stuff to be beautiful but not as comfortable as I'd hoped, which is sad. I have the Alouette in Blue set as a gift, but I've found I can't comfortably wear the bra for a whole day because it rubs and chafes under my arm, to the extent that I've had to stick a plaster on the affected patch in order to continue wearing it (I didn't have access to different underwear to change into), which sort of defeats the point of having sexy lingerie! I tried on a few different sizes before buying and this was the best fit, so perhaps my body is just awkward or something. I've not even worn the full set together yet, and feel quite guilty as it was a gift and I feel like I'm being ungrateful for it. Part of it is also feeling a bit like I'm dressing up and that I feel silly, as someone who usually wears jeans and isn't very "glamourous" on a daily basis, but that's a whole other issue, and I seem to be getting far off topic now.

I would definitely suggest that if you do go with any sort of new underwear for the day that you try wearing it in advance first, just to make sure it's comfortable enough to quietly do its job while you get on with enjoying your wedding day without being distracted by niggly discomfort. That sounds like potentially a no-brainer, but I suspect there are loads of brides out there who buy special underwear for their wedding and want to keep it new and still special for the day itself, but from experience I would regret not having tried it first!

[naath]

Oh and
http://www.anniethepedlar.com/
does a lot of people's Kentwell stuff and it's all top-notch, but a bit earlier than you seem to be thinking - I'm not sure that 16th century men's wear really works well as 21st century clothing no matter what standard you make it to.

[forestofglory]

Is there someone Jack trusts who he could ask for help in deciding an outfit? My Dad's wedding planning advice to me was delegate, delegate, delegate. However I'm not sure it works in this case.

I know of a couple of places to find pattern for that type of coat, but it is lot of work to go form pattern to coat.

[liv]

Yeah, I think we both need some serious handholding for this whole clothes choosing thing! I've only got this far because I have lovely supportive friends who convinced me not to run away screaming. But it's a lot harder for men.

I think the thing with starting from a pattern is that I'm reluctant to ask anyone who isn't actually a professional or at least serious hobbyist tailor / costumier to make something up. Because for someone who doesn't do that kind of thing on a regular basis it's a huge amount of work, and difficult to do really well. I considered that option for my own dress too, and eventually rejected it.

[hatam_soferet]

I would LOVE to hold Jack's hand and persuade him towards frock coatery.

[liv]

But, dearest badger, geography! If you want to try persuading him virtually I'm all in favour. Especially since I now actually have at least one place where there seems a decent possibility of acquiring said frock-coat.

[ceb]

Seconded, I think he'd look fantastic in a frock coat :-)

[liv]

OK, we need a conspiracy of friends who can convince him that the sheer blinding gorgeousness will be worth the effort of having to source the shiny clothes. I mean, it worked for me; I was all gung-ho for getting married in a pretty but not exceptional frock I already owned, being scared of shopping, and all my friends persuaded me, and look where I ended up!

[lethargic_man]

What I'm hoping for a is something along the lines of an eighteenth or early nineteenth century style frock coat

I haven't had time to read most of this, but bluepork got married in an Edwardian frock coat; you may or may not want to ask him where he got it.

[liv]

That's a very useful lead, thank you. I didn't know that he had gone in for period stuff, so I should definitely ask him.

Just throwing around some ideas, I hope you don't mind

[lab]

As far as corsetry is concerned, I would definitely go with with Electra Designs who is simply wonderful or Harman Hay who is very far out of my price range, but their work is gorgeous. I don't know if either of them take commissions at the moment, though.

Have you considered going with separates since you do want something special but would feel bad about spending so much money a gown for just one day? I am thinking about getting - for example - a custom made corset and maybe a flowy/gown-y skirt and maybe get a shorter one made at the same time; or pick an Edwardian inspired corset with removable straps …

[liv]

Thank you! Now I'm wishing I'd asked earlier, lots of people seem to have good ideas about corsets. Thank you for those recs. I'm a bit reluctant to do anything long distance; if I'm going to pay serious money for a custom-made garment I'd like it to be fitted to my actual body rather than working from measurements. But those are some very cool businesses, thank you.

Yeah, I think separates probably makes sense. It would be really nice if I could repurpose the outfit later, perhaps a corset with velvet trousers or a plain black skirt, or a ballgown skirt with a blouse rather than the matching corset. If I do go down this route I'll certainly talk to the designer about options.

[askygoneonfire]

As far as completely custom corsets go, I really can't recommend Elle Corsets highly enough. She works to a fantastically high standard, does a mock up service for bridal corsets so the fit can be 100%, she's also really friendly and the prices are a STEAL.

I think I'd be inclined to option 2 as long as you don't already have a clear idea in mind for what you want because it's obviously going to be a dress influenced by availability of fabric and designs from designer whereas I think option 3 would allow you complete free range with design, but you can guarantee with option2 you'll get something really individual and quirky.

[liv]

Those are very good points. I have a sort of idea in my mind, but clear it isn't, just going along with what happens to be available could be a really good compromise. Thanks for the suggestion of Elle Corsets; I think I'm not quite ready for the whole tight-lacing / waist-training thing, I want something that fits me well, not necessarily something that's going to radically change my figure. Still, good to collect more recs, if this works well I may find myself wanting a slightly less elaborate corset for party wear in the future.

[emma]

Squee! I'm glad that you like Morua Designs! I can totally vouch for Gerry as being a lovely and professional designer, and she's made wedding dresses for two of my friends (the lady all in the pink on her website, and the other lady with the red hair and purple brocade corset), so can vouch for her dresses being lovely in person too, and for their owners being thrilled with them. I know that E's worn her purple corset again since her wedding, so you can totally justify it by potentially wearing it to other fancy events in future :) I'm very much inclined to say go with Option 3, partly due to my bias as Gerry's my friend, but also because I think spoiling yourself with something beautiful for your wedding day is perfectly reasonable, and if you can afford it then go for it! It is rather a lot of money to spend on a dress, but not at all uncommon in the wedding world. See also: really shiny.

[liv]

I'm really really grateful to you for that rec, knowing about that company has completely changed my perspective on this whole dress thing. Also, the prices look steep but I've peeked into a few bridal shops and they seem to think nothing of charging several hundred pounds for off-the-peg dresses made out of polyester and originating from sweatshops in China. (If I actually wanted something white and traditionally bridal it'd be well into four figures.) Actually, I do politically believe that occasion dresses ought to cost several hundred pounds, clothing is one of those industries where we've just got used to not paying the real costs.

The other side of it, though, is that I'm really suspicious of the whole wedding industry, there's so much social pressure about how your wedding day has to be the highlight of your life and it's setting people up to overspend drastically. So in some ways I want to stick to the basics (and I'm generally just bad at spending money on myself). That's obviously not Gerry's fault, though. I'd much rather commission her to make me something really beautiful and high-quality, than spend money on absurd things like table decorations.

[ephemera]

Having gone through variations on the theme with my ex-husband for our wedding, two close male friends, and my current boyfriend, none of whom are 'classic suit shaped' in various different ways*, I'd suggest looking into getting at least the jacket part of an outfit made to measure - the only down side is needing to have a good idea of what shape will suit before you can try it on. It might be worth having a trying-on session in a well equipped fancy dress shop, to generate ideas for shapes/cuts, if you have access to such a thing. Our collective experience has been that anyone who can make up clothes in general from patterns can do a jacket, and it's less arcane and magical than traditional bespoke tailors would have you believe - at least, it *can* be and still look good.

*Of these, the guy who caused his tailor / seamstress the most trouble was the slender gymn bunny who kept getting more and more extremely V shaped as the wedding approached, which isn't what people would necessarily expect to cause tailor's trouble.

[liv]

Yeah, it's funny how people who match the extremes of conventional attractiveness also can't find clothes to fit because they are outliers in the population. I think you're right that the first step is to decide precisely what we're looking for and then look for craftspeople who can do that. We're just neither of us really into clothes, which doesn't help.

[(Anonymous)]

I think you should come down to Brighton for the weekend and buy a dress from dig for victory. I am biased because I live down here and then you would visit me and you also buthisy a dress from my friend. But the other advantage is that there a couple of smart tailors in Brighton making flamboyant suits. One is "Gresham Blake" and the other is in Kemp town but I cannot remember what they are called. They do very shiny suits in very exciting colours as well as more conventional stuff. Secretly, I want to buy a suit from them. I'm fairly certain they will be able to cope with unconventional figures because there are a large number of bears on the gay scene and they certainly market themselves towards the scene. The downside would be they don't seem to be particularly inspired by new Romantic/Edwardian/steam punk style clothing. Having said that I think the extremely high waste of an Edwardian suit looks rather better on skinny men.

Sticking with the bear theme, Jack could always wear a leather or canvas kilt. They do a very nice range in "prowler". They look suitably smart but not fake Scottish.

YAB