Crowd-sourcing

[liv]

A couple of good questions on my d-roll recently, so I am repeating them here in order to solicit more opinions. And because a nice discussion will distract me from doing all the pre-term admin I'm working on this week.

falena, who hangs out with a pretty international crowd, asked the classic scone question (discussion in the comments is worth reading if you enjoy that kind of phonology / dialect nerdery.) I can't resist the excuse for a pronunciation debate poll, so:

Poll #14284 the scone debate

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 46

View Respondents

This tasty leavened cake is a scone.

View Answers

Rhymes with "gone"
21 (45.7%)

Rhymes with "stone"
14 (30.4%)

Not quite the same vowel as either, but closer to "gone"
7 (15.2%)

Not quite the same vowel as either, but closer to "stone"
2 (4.3%)

None of the above
2 (4.3%)

How will you eat it?

View Answers

With butter only
17 (40.5%)

With butter and jam
18 (42.9%)

With whipped cream and jam
10 (23.8%)

With clotted cream and jam
24 (57.1%)

Jam first, then cream!
11 (26.2%)

Cream first, then jam!
12 (28.6%)

With some other topping
5 (11.9%)

Give it to someone else who likes scones
4 (9.5%)

Cream tea ate my grandmother, you insensitive clod!
2 (4.8%)

Where did you come by your linguistic and culinary habits (feel free to expand in comments)?

View Answers

On a completely unrelated topic, ofearthandstars found some trans-positive music videos and is seeking more such music. I posted a related query to mix_tape and people have come up with some good stuff. Ideally I would like to winnow the list to select songs with a positive, supportive message, cos quite a lot of them are a little bit treating the genderqueer subject as a freak. Some of them are just old, I suspect dating from an era when categories like transvestite and transgender weren't as clearly delineated as today, but I'm not the one to decide whether that's offensive or acceptable for its time. I'm also not sure whether the whole repertoire of folk songs about girls who dress as boys in order to have adventures actually belongs in this general category, but I like songs like that anyway, so feel free to recommend some, even they end up in a different playlist. Anyway, more suggestions are welcome, and critiques of any of the song choices even more so.

If you do Spotify, here's what we've come up with so far. The list is still in progress so I'll probably be updating it as the discussion proceeds. In particular I haven't sorted it at all so there is a lot of jumping about between musical styles and no overall arc yet.

Comments

[alexseanchai]

Who eats scones with topping? They're perfectly tasty all by themselves. My friend Sarah has a recipe for scones with orange juice and cranberries in. NOM.

[liv]

Really good scones are so buttery on their own that I agree, it's not really worth putting topping on them. But lots of places sell mediocre scones which are dry and sawdusty and then the only way to make them enjoyable is to use them as a substrate for a big pile of jam and cream! Also cream tea is just one of those cultural traditions; sorry it has painful associations for you.

[alexseanchai]

True point.

:p I clicked that ticky because it's funny.

[liv]

The "insensitive clod" ticky is a very, very old joke. I sometimes sail a bit close to the wind by writing "gender binary killed my grandparent, you insensitive clod" if I'm asking questions to elicit differences between male and female experiences, but mostly it's for people to make jokes about taking offence at harmless things.

[jae]

Wah, your first item is radio buttons rather than tickyboxes, so I can't answer the question properly (I use more than one form depending on where I am).

-J

[liv]

Aha, this was all part of my cunning plan: inappropriate radio buttons always bring comments because people always want tickyboxes instead. Seriously, I do love how code-switchers make dialect surveys so much more complicated.

I am seeing some minor evidence for your theory that Brits who pronounce scone with ɒ don't have exactly the same vowel-sound in scone and gone.

[jae]

It may just be some Brits; I can't be sure (I'm not an expert in UK dialects). But some definitely do (it's a matter of vowel length, not quality, in case that helps).

-J

[liv]

That totally makes sense. I don't know UK dialects either beyond the sort of vague, I'm a native speaker and I have a feel for how people from various backgrounds talk.

[antisoppist]

code-switchers make dialect surveys so much more complicated.

My mother noticed with amusement when I was four that I said scone-to-rhyme-with-gone to my paternal grandmother and scone-to-rhyme-with-stone to my maternal grandmother. I can't decide whether this shows great tact or sneaky duplicity in one so young.

[liv]

I think that definitely counts as tact. And advanced linguistic skills, too, being able to code-switch and knowing which situations you should do so is always a good sign in young kids.

[jack]

It might even be not realising they were the same word, I've done that before when I've learned two different pronunciations only aloud, not in writing...

[liv]

I heard tell of a kid who was raised Hebrew-English bilingual, who at a young age (pre-school) was showing off his ability to recognize the letters on the keyboard, and said, in Hebrew, "M - l'ima" [M is for Mummy]. So he'd made a connection between the letter shape M, the English word Mummy, and the Hebrew word ima, without really understanding the concept of an initial letter sound.

[lethargic_man]

I did something similar when I was younger thinking "foetid" ([fiːtɪd]) and "fetid" ([fɛtɪd]) were different words.

[kerrypolka]

I hear scone and gone as having very slightly different vowel sounds, although I am not sure how successful I am at emulating this!

[liv]

I think foreigners are often better at hearing real phonemes, cos natives tend to just assume that if it's spelled the same (and not obviously different pronunciation due to the twisted history of English spelling), it sounds roughly the same. Like most English people aren't aware that the -ed suffix is pronounced as t in a large minority of words.

[ephemera]

Ditto! The toppings also vary - is this a plain scone or a fruited one? Warm or cold?

[liv]

I sort of forgot about the existence of cold fruit scones when I made this poll. But I agree, those ones aren't meant to be eaten with jam and cream.

[kaberett]

I do this too but went for the one I normally go for. :-)

[jae]

I honestly don't know which one that would be for me! I generally speak Canadian English, but I spend a lot of time in the UK, and I pronounce it the UK way when I'm there. I suppose the UK way might be more common for me because I'm usually there when I'm talking about scones? Maybe. :)

-J

[lilacsigil]

"Scone", "gone" and "stone" are three different vowels for me. But I care not for the pronunciation debate: they're all delicious! (I put "other" topping which is our local redgum honey and local organic cream nom nom nom.)

[liv]

Ooh, redgum honey! That sounds like an excellent reason to branch out from traditional scone toppings!

Scone toppings

[forestofglory]

So a plan British style scone I like with cream and jam, but the slightly denser American scone with things in (e.g. a fruit and nut scone, or a corn cherry scone) is generally intended to be eaten with out any toppings. There is also a local bakery that makes a oat scone that like with butter and jam. (I'm sure it would be good with cream to, but cream is hard to come by in the US.)

Now I'm sad about the lack of clotted cream in the US. :(

Re: Scone toppings

[liv]

I think I hadn't understood that American scones were a distinct culinary thing. It makes sense that if your scone has a filling it doesn't also need a topping. Sorry that you don't have clotted cream and you do have geography so I can't easily offer you some, though.

Re: Scone toppings

[forestofglory]

They really are. US scones are denser and also come in more shapes. They are often wedge shaped, and when round tend to be lumpier. They don't have a filling like you'd have in a cake, with separate layer in the middle, more like things scattered inside, like the fruit in a fruit scone. (The corn cherry scones I mentioned above have cornmeal in the batter.)

Re: Scone toppings

[liv]

I feel educated now. I knew muffins were an entirely different food, but I didn't know about scones. And that does explain the things sold as scones in American coffee shop chains, I just thought they were bad because they're mass-produced rather than freshly baked. That's probably still the case, but it sounds like they're aiming for an entirely different cake.

Re: Scone toppings

[dafna]

Just to say that clotted cream, while rare, is available in the U.S. Or at least it is in the Seattle area, anyway.

But I agree with the larger point that the scones you get at afternoon tea places here should be piled with cream and jam and the heavily spiced scones with bits of fruit in them that you get at coffee places are made to be eaten by themselves.

Re: Scone toppings

[liv]

This sounds promising; does the sort of place that sells clotted cream in the Seattle area also serve scones and proper tea to eat with it? Because if so, you should totally tell Redbird about this, she's in the Seattle area and is deprived of cream tea.

I am glad I made the poll now because I had no idea about the coffee-accompanying kind of scones!

The US has three types of scones: sedimentary, igneous, and metamorphic.

[siderea]

I was under the impression I hated scones based on the little triangular cranberry-pocked rocks sold in our cafés, until an anglophile baker of my acquaintance presented me with some smuggled clotted cream and proper fluffy buttery scones.

She was not my grandmother, though a beloved elder. Cream tea didn't rub her out, though it was a close thing what with her misdiagnosed diabetes and she almost lost her lower legs. She was ultimately done in by colon cancer. But thinking about her and her scones is a very happy memory, so I don't think you are an insensitive clod at all. ;)

[liv]

Ok, this is totally the most endearing "insensitive clod" tickybox ever. I'm glad that you had this person in your life and that she introduced you to our culinary traditions.

[redbird]

There is a bakery near me that sells a scone-ish thing that is ginger flavored and iced; those I eat plain.

/would like a cream tea, though

[liv]

Iced ginger scone seems a strange concept to me! I imagine you are not well placed for finding good cream teas, sadly.

[dafna]

If you don't mind getting fancy, the afternoon tea at the Georgian Room in the Fairmont Olympic serves proper Devonshire cream with their scones: http://www.fairmont.com/seattle/dining/thegeorgiantea/

The other Seattle tea locations I've been to that have scones, but not clotted cream are the Queen Mary (whipped cream), the Sorrento (mascarpone) and Remedy (butter).

I haven't been, but I think you can get scones and real cream at the British Pantry, which is in Redmond:
thebritishpantryltd.com

[malnpudl]

Where I live (NW corner of California), the so-called scones I can buy are dense, heavy, dry things that I can only eat with lots of lubrication, thus my selection of butter and jam. They might do as hockey pucks, at least for a few whacks. But I'd like to try an authentic one some day to see what the fuss is about.

Linguistically speaking, in both small-town SW Ohio where I grew up and the relatively remote and rural pocket of California where I live now, you'd better pronounce scone to rhyme with stone if you have any hope of anyone knowing what you're talking about. *g*

And though I've been reading British fiction for decades, I still have no idea what cream tea is. *headtilt*

[naath]

Oh, cream tea comes in many guises and depends on lots of things (such as "how much would you like to pay"). But basically what you have is scones (usually with butter and jam and possible cream - whipped or clotted - that you add yourself to the scones if you want) served with tea (any kind of tea is fine, with milk and/or sugar if you like it that way) (most places will serve coffee or hot chocolate if you ask, but it's not traditional the way tea is). A more elaborate option often called "Afternoon Tea" might include sandwiches (usually the tiny kind, with light fillings like smoked salmon or cucumber) and other cakes and patiseries. Swanky places often offer the option of having champagne with it (not instead of tea, as well as tea) and places that are either swanky or very keen on tea (mostly tiny hippy places IME) will offer a large selection of different teas.

It can be everything from a light snack through to an enormous meal, depending on how much of it is served. NB that if you go to one of the big London hotels for super-swanky "afternoon tea" that costs far too much money and is a ridiculous extravagence it is All You Can Eat, and they will keep bringing *more cakes* for as long as you can bear to eat them.

[liv]

Thank you for this clear culinary and linguistic explanation. I have definitely learned something from this silly poll; now I understand that American scones are a completely different thing from the ones we have over here.

naath has helpfully explained our strange customs when it comes to tea. The two people who officiated at my wedding I ended up paying in swanky cream teas (the kind where they keep bringing you more cakes and scones until you explode) because for complicated professional reasons I couldn't actually give them money, and that was a good excuse for the four of us to have a fun afternoon out.

[ofearthandstars]

Oh, thank you again for plugging my music request!

[liv]

NP, I was interested in the question myself. Also an excuse to plug my community, which I'm also fond of.

[naath]

Sk-on not sk-own; which I got from my Scottish mother. My Dad says Sk-own and grew up in Essex. I grew up in Essex but I listened to Mum.

If I make them myself I eat them with jam, sometimes butter and jam if they come out a bit dry. If I'm eating them "out" I'll take whatever topping is offered but have a preference for butter, jam, and clotted cream. I don't really like whipped cream on scones most of the time. The order you put the cream and jam on depends on the *consistency of the cream* - thin creams go last, but heavy clotted cream goes first; spreading jam on top of whipped cream is hard to do.

[liv]

Yay, good explanation, thank you. I think you're right, it does depend on the cream. I realized I was hesitating when I came to answer my own poll, and I think that's probably why, I was imagining different kinds of cream which would mix differently with jam and therefore vacillating.

Trans-positive song

[yalovetz]

"Dr James" by Gilmore & Roberts, about Dr James Barry.

Re: Trans-positive song

[liv]

Ooh, that's really awesome, I'm so pleased someone made a song about Barry. I really like the instrumentation, too.