liv: cartoon of me with long plait, teapot and purple outfit (mini-me)
[personal profile] liv
So I was chatting to my brother Screwy over Christmas, and he asserted that making ethical consumer choices is just a way to express your values, it doesn't really help to bring about change. Now, Screwy is a philosopher and fond of making provocatively sweeping statements, and he's also way to the left of me politically. But when we were chewing over this one, I realized I couldn't entirely refute it. So I'm bringing it to DW, to see what my thinky interesting readers think.

Since I am a capitalist, ethical consumerism is really quite important to me. It just seems right to me to prefer to give my money to people and enterprises that I approve of. I mean, that's not a moral absolute, there's a trade-off between what I want and what I consider ethical. And what I can afford, both in terms of paying a premium for more ethical purchases, and at this point in my life more importantly, in terms of time spent figuring out exactly where my money should be going. Partly cos a lot of the information I want when making purchasing decisions isn't readily available. But ethical considerations are a pretty big factor in how I choose to spend (and invest) my money.

Equally, as a capitalist, I am biased towards considering individual factors and bad at recognizing structural factors. (Some places on the internet, including the subtitle of this journal, I use the handle individ-ewe-al, which is a bit of a silly pun on my name, but it also reflects my politics and my tendency to think about individual human beings more than collectives like countries or women or the often nebulous "society".) I do try to correct for that bias, and a lot of the time that means listening respectfully to my leftier friends. But to a great extent, I tend to see morality as more about repeatedly making good choices rather than bad choices, based on making better what you can influence, not so much in terms of "changing the world".

So I suppose emotionally, I want it to be the case that when I buy fair trade food and put my money in a bank with an ethical policy, it matters, I'm doing some actual good. And in that sense, yes, I am expressing my values by making those choices. To an extent it seems a bit like voting; most of the time a single vote doesn't matter at all, and I do agree that if you really care about democracy and improving your society, you have to do more than just vote. But voting is a way of expressing your values; I believe strongly in the principle of a secret ballot, so it's not about "sending a message" as such, but it's still an expression. I am the sort of person who wants low taxes and lots of individual freedom and innovation / I am the sort of person who wants a strong welfare state and a mutually supportive community. So by voting, you're reinforcing to yourself that you are that sort of person, and that makes it more likely that you will make decisions that relate to those values in the future.

I mean, one of the examples that Screwy gave was vegetarianism. He said that an individual person being veggie does very little for animal welfare, so it doesn't really matter how strict you are about making absolutely sure you have no meat-based ingredients in your food, you're generally expressing your values by choosing not to eat meat. It doesn't matter whether you're vegetarian or vegan or somewhere in between, because you're really just being the sort of person who cares about animal welfare, and any expression of that is about as good as any other. (I hope I'm not misrepresenting him here.) That doesn't seem quite right to me, because surely if enough people stop eating meat, the meat industry will shrink and then fewer animals will be killed for food, so change will in fact be effected.

There's been a lot of discussion on Facebook recently about the possibility of voting Green at the upcoming election. And it's a discussion on Facebook, so of course it's very much about expressing values. Am I the sort of person who rejects the Neo-liberal economic consensus? Am I the sort of person who cares about the environment? I think very few people in the discussion really believe that the Green party is going to be substantial force in the next parliament, let alone that they're going to win the election. But maybe they want to be the kind of people who vote Green, perhaps because they want to protest against the entrenched political system without voting for racists. Several people are very vocal about refusing to vote Green because they're seen as an anti-science party; I think the fact that at some point in the party's history they supported homoeopathy is a very minor issue and the mainstream parties have done far worse things in terms of failing to base their healthcare policy on evidence, but for lots of people, being rational and therefore rejecting homoeopathy and other "woo" is a big identity thing.

For myself, I dislike the fact that the Greens are against genetic manipulation, which is kind of what I do for a living, and nuclear energy, which I am generally in favour of, but that's pretty minor compared to individual policies I disagree with proposed by any of the other parties. A higher value priority for me is that I want to be the sort of person who treats all human beings with respect, including people with disabilities and foreigners, so for that reason maybe it's worth my voting Green even though I have very little time for their economic policy, because they're against austerity and pro immigration. Basically they're kind of positioning themselves as economically left and socially liberal, at least to an extent; lots of people who are economically left tend to be somewhat statist and authoritarian, so they don't quite know what to make of this. I have the opposite problem, in that I'm socially liberal but economically right, so I likewise feel like the Green party is an awkward fit for me, just for different reasons. But the Liberal Democrats, er, basically failed to do anything actually liberal at any point in the last five years, so I am reluctant to vote for them even though on paper I agree with more of their policies.

Of course, when it comes to actual voting, I am aiming to vote for an MP as well as for a party, and I will have to vote tactically to some extent because FPTP forces that. And I doubt that the Green party would enact their somewhat Utopian policies even if they did get into power, which seems pretty unlikely anyway. But in terms of figuring out whether I'm the kind of person who could vote for a party who don't want to invest in science and economic growth, but do plan to roll back draconian laws against "terrorism" and punitive welfare cuts and abusive immigration policies, these considerations are less important.

But precisely because I think of myself as an individual more than a member of an identity group, I feel vaguely uneasy thinking like this. I don't like the idea that my vote is merely a way of being a middle-class over-thinker who likes multiculturalism and dislikes austerity, or who likes science and dislikes wealth taxes if I decide to vote the other way. I don't like the idea that in choosing to be mostly vegetarian, I'm just being the kind of person who cares about animal welfare (and Jewish dietary laws), I'm not actually helping animals or the environment at all. And I don't like the idea that it's not worth making more effort to cut down on the eggs and dairy I eat and prioritize buying produce that comes from decently treated animals. Even though that would make my life easier, I want to feel like I'm actually making a difference, even if it's a small one, even if it's only on balance and the sort of thing that only helps if lots of people do it.

Maybe this is why I tend to put time and effort into community volunteering, and don't feel comfortable with efficient charitable giving. If I do stuff that actually makes people's lives better where I can see it, that is at least satisfying, even if it doesn't have globally significant effects. If I give what I can afford, which is really quite a lot in relative terms, to buying cheap medicines so that children in the poorest parts of the world are more likely to survive treatable diseases, I don't actually change the situation where there's huge global inequality such that a billion people need handouts from rich Westerners to get basic medical care. And isn't picking causes just one more consumer choice, one more way of expressing values without effecting change? The Effective Altruism people are expressing their values, which is that they're rational and care about spending their money where it can do most good and aren't moved by sentiment, and I'm expressing mine by preferring to volunteer and make personal connections with people, because I'm the sort of person who believes in having a strong responsibility to people whose lives I'm directly involved in. Does any of it matter, given that although my friends and I are mostly rich in global terms, we're hardly rich or influential enough to actually have a meaningful effect on international politics?

There's a locked discussion elsejournal to the effect that you have to be either a teenager, or hugely privileged (unattached, high earning 30-something white guy was the sort of example), to be arrogant enough to believe you can change the world. I think I've never been a change the world sort of person, but I do think you can make a positive difference to the people in your life, and if everybody did that, the world would get incrementally better. But I also think there are ways to bring about real change that aren't just consumer choices, or else the kind of activism that you can only engage in if you are really comfortably cushioned and have plenty of spare money, time and energy.

Well, last time I talked about the philosophy behind my politics it went reasonably well, so let's see if this sets off some equally good discussion, even if I am not quite aligned with many of my readers in some ways.
ETA: My brother turned up to explain what he meant a bit more clearly than my summary: his clarification

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-27 09:41 am (UTC)
rmc28: Rachel in hockey gear on the frozen fen at Upware, near Cambridge (Default)
From: [personal profile] rmc28
I can think of an excellent example, based off [personal profile] liv's throwaway comment "the Liberal Democrats, er, basically failed to do anything actually liberal at any point in the last five years"

- raised income tax threshold bringing poorer workers
- free school meals
- extending free nursery hours to the poorest 40%
- massive increase in apprenticeships
- same sex marriage
- refused to let benefits be frozen when inflation was rising
- massively reduced child imprisonment before deportation (not eliminated entirely, but far better than it was)
- killed (repeatedly) internet snooping plans
- forced an actual review on drugs policy, and then forced it to be published


but you know, the compromises to get those things mean LibDems have done nothing liberal

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-27 05:34 pm (UTC)
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle
I did some blog posts round about the time of the Communications Data Bill and participated in discussions with a number of very clued up about IT LibDem grassroots supporters. They were horrified by it; the feedback they were getting from higher up, via Clegg's SPADs and so forth, which was that it was all needed, there were minor concessions hyped up as major victories and RIPA was being treated like holy writ. The thing that really killed it was really the Snowden revelations that GCHQ had been recording the stuff all along, not any Parliamentary party taking a stand.

I have numerous issues with the LibDems, but one of my biggies has been the treatment of women, especially with the Lord Rennard stuff and a former editor of LibDem Voice leaping onto "separate but equal" as the right model for female participation in public life.

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-27 09:58 pm (UTC)
davidgillon: A pair of crutches, hanging from coat hooks, reflected in a mirror (Default)
From: [personal profile] davidgillon
especially with the Lord Rennard stuff

Shudders!!! That was so deeply creepy, and yet so many people's instincts were clearly to close ranks to 'protect' the party, which put them on the same level wrt protecting women as the Socialist Workers Party*.

*i.e. the there are not enough *headdesks* in the world level.
Edited Date: 2015-01-27 10:00 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-28 08:35 am (UTC)
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle
Well, yes; the NHS is the issue I'm prepared to go to the barricades for, and the treatment of the NHS (which, not being in the Conservative party manifesto could surely have been challenged by the LibDems without breaching cabinet solidarity or whatever) is the issue which I find unforgiveable.

No, no-one has clean hands on sexual harassment, but Rennard + Thorpe + Smith suggests a sort of -- diabolic succession? -- on the issue.

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-28 05:31 pm (UTC)
davidgillon: A pair of crutches, hanging from coat hooks, reflected in a mirror (Default)
From: [personal profile] davidgillon
the treatment of the NHS (which, not being in the Conservative party manifesto could surely have been challenged by the LibDems without breaching cabinet solidarity or whatever)

For that matter Cameron swore blind he was going to 'protect the most vulnerable' all the way into power, and immediately turned around and closed the ILF.

No, no-one has clean hands on sexual harassment, but Rennard + Thorpe + Smith suggests a sort of -- diabolic succession? -- on the issue.

Not to forget the possibly even creepier Mike Hancock MP and his relationship with a vulnerable mentally ill constituent who went to him for help. They did eventually take action in that case last year, which he resigned ahead of, but years too late (and after Portsmouth Lib Dems had suppressed their own report into the case).

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-29 10:05 pm (UTC)
rmc28: Rachel in hockey gear on the frozen fen at Upware, near Cambridge (Default)
From: [personal profile] rmc28
Gosh, I hadn't realised how much this debate had continued while I was busy the last two days.

Trying to take your points in order, and bearing in mind I was pulling things off the top of my head:

- I think poverty is a limiting factor on freedom, therefore antipoverty measures are liberal measures (also it is in the preamble to the constitution that we work towards a society where "none shall be enslaved by ignorance, poverty or conformity"

- same sex marriage has all party backing now because it has turned out to be popular; what I know is that it was passed into LibDem party policy at conference in autumn 2010, before either of the other two big parties made commitments, and that while David Cameron threw his weight behind it, he was able to be so because he knew he had (almost all) of the LibDem votes in favour. I was just digging out some of Julian's contributions to that particular debate and found a Conservative pointing out that while the government had a majority in favour, there was not a majority of Conservatives in favour; and Labour did introduce civil partnerships and that was a good step forward, but they could have done marriage back then and didn't; even at the time of the debates people were saying "surely there are more important things for the country than this". I think that without LibDems in the Coalition, and specifically Lynne Featherstone in Equalities, it could easily have been a "not that important" thing that got pushed back again and again.

- also please decide if the libdems have "done nothing" because it was all-party support or "are responsible for it being horribly transphobic" i.e. 90% rather than 100% (despite a lot of personal lobbying by friends of mine in LibDem LGBT+ of the committee trying to fix the spousal veto stuff)

- child imprisonment: I was under the impression we had gone from imprisoning children for months and years in detention centres to holding them for a few days at most in secure houses - I thought it was a 90% case again. I bow to your brother's greater expertise if he thinks it is more like 10% with the reduction in oversight, and I'm sorry to hear that because I know how hard Sarah Teather worked to get just as far as we have got

- given your political priorites: Julian voted against the government on tuition fees. Julian voted against the government on NHS marketisation. Julian was instrumental in getting Nick Clegg to resist the "snoopers charter" bills that keep coming back (and back and back). Julian is also (last poll I saw) running slightly behind his Labour opponent in Cambridge and needs every vote he can get


On Rennard: yes, it was fucking awful, and the party has lost some fantastic women (Susan Gaszack is a personal friend and I was gutted to see people close ranks against her and make her feel unwelcome) - what really struck me was how much I live in a bubble most of the time where people take harassment seriously etc, and how many terribly well-meaning people said "well I know a woman who never had a problem with Rennard so it must all be lies", or demanded extra details and then decided they weren't good enough (even within my own family I had to do harassment 101 explanations)

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-30 11:11 am (UTC)
rmc28: Rachel in hockey gear on the frozen fen at Upware, near Cambridge (Default)
From: [personal profile] rmc28
I didn't feel shouted at, fwiw. I just felt bad I wasn't responding because work, children, tired; and then I came back and wow, lots of comments.

The trouble with "and it doesn't translate into upholding those values in parliament" is the problem of coalitions generally, made worse by the tradition of "collective responsibility" where one is not meant to criticise any government decision if one is in the government.

I have heard ministers speak at party meetings about the horrendous internal arguments and negotiations and the concessions demanded to get even a sliver of LibDem policy through - and then if it is popular, the Conservatives will say they were in favour all along. (You will also hear Conservatives complain about how the LibDems are always trying to claim credit for popular things, and being far too pushy given their tiny number of MPs - sometimes I take a bitter satisfaction when the more unpleasant type of Conservative MP complains about what the LibDems have stopped their party doing, but being a perpetual brake isn't exactly a message of hope.)

The LibDem ministers who have achieved the most in their areas are those who have never, ever, said anything publicly to criticise their Conservative fellow ministers. It's kind of hard to tell from the outside if they secretly agree with things or are personally gutted about it, and if you are one of the people who is being hurt, you probably don't care if the well-paid minister feels bad about hurting you.

For example, we are a lot further towards having a sustainable basis for a state pension that people can actually live on, and a lot more people in work paying into a pension: because Steve Webb has been working really really hard on that for his entire time as pensions minister. And he has never criticised anything else done in the Department of Work and Pensions, including those things that [personal profile] davidgillon listed and I am upset about.

Another example would be Norman Lamb and trying to get mental health to be given equal priority with physical health - and never ever criticising the changes to the NHS.

Sarah Teather was more openly critical, and she lost her Cabinet seat. Tessa Munt just resigned her government post to vote against the government on fracking.

I mean obviously I have come down on the side of "I mostly think these people are doing their best with a poisoned chalice" and "having fewer liberals in Parliament isn't going to improve things" and "I'd rather try to stay and work within the party to make things better than leave" or I'd have left. That's the decision I've come to now; it might change in future (though I really hope not).

Right now, I specifically do very much want Julian Huppert to be re-elected, both as a voice within parliament, and a voice within our party (because sure we're all equal members, but the parliamentarians are more high-profile and influential, who'd have thought), and I am putting money and volunteer effort towards that.

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-27 03:13 pm (UTC)
davidgillon: A pair of crutches, hanging from coat hooks, reflected in a mirror (Default)
From: [personal profile] davidgillon
- Went into the lobbies to vote the Welfare Reform Bill through
- Went into the lobbies to vote the Welfare Reform Bill back to what it was when even some of Thatcher's old cabinet in the Lords balked at what it was going to do to disabled people and tried to limit the effects (it's coming to something when bloody Floella Benjamin is voting through measures Leon Brittain thinks are too extreme).
- Ignored their own conference votes on what was happening with disability cuts (though kudos to the people who stood up for us - ETA I remember now that it was George Potter who spearheaded this)
- Turned from staunch opponents of the WCA, to staunch supporters (Danny Alexander being the poster child for this)
- Backed the Bedroom Tax, no matter what it was doing to disabled people who needed to sleep in separate rooms
- Backed the closure of the Independent Living Fund
- Backed massive cuts in council budgets leading to massive cuts in social care, leading to things like night time toileting being declared a luxury and disabled little old ladies being told they would just have to lie in their own waste overnight. (And doubling the effect of closing the ILF). We actually had councils saying 'We're going to cut adult social care to protect the budgets of popular items like libraries'.
- Time-limited disability support under ESA at 12 months (I'm sorry, but I'm 26 years into active disability, 7 years into being too disabled to work, and the miracle cure still stubbornly refuses to happen)
- Let disability benefits be frozen, while claiming 'no, of course we aren't freezing disability benefits' (The blatant lie is claiming ESA is not a disability benefit, allowing the overwhelming majority of ESA to be frozen, only the tiny top-up for the most disabled claimants of all in the Support Group is not frozen, yet you have to be too disabled to work to claim any part of ESA)
- Redefined Disability Living Allowance to PIP, overnight redefining 20% of disabled claimants as not disabled enough to claim it. (The full impact of this has been deferred until after the election because even IDS realises it will be an utter PR disaster as 200,000 disabled people lose eligibility for Motability and lose the ability to get to work, or even out of the house at all - not to mention the impact on the car industry).
- Repeatedly tried to cut the Access to Work budget, even though it made a 1.4:1 ROI through taxes paid by the disabled people it allowed to work by providing the support they needed. (That's right, they cut a scheme that makes a profit on every pound spent). Takeup is massively down, the staff say they've been forced to shift from support to policing and even now they're fiddling with the rules for things like sign language interpreters that are forcing prominent disabled people to say 'this is going to make it impossible for me to work'.
- Unlimited disability workfare (yes, you can be too disabled to work, and still mandated onto an indefinite disability workfare scheme, in fact that went through before unlimited non-disability workfare).
- Horrendous increases in JSA sanctioning, particularly, and unforgiveably, targetted sanctioning of claimants with mental health disabilities. (DWP have just admitted to the Work and Pensions Committee that they believe any sanction, never mind of a disabled person, will have a health impact)
- Made the WCA even harsher with the introduction of the imaginary wheelchair (an assessor is allowed to imagine that something - say an imaginary wheelchair - will solve all the problems of your disability and allow you to work, and therefore declare you fit for work, even if you know your local NHS will refuse to supply a suitable wheelchair, even if no suitable wheelchair actually exists). You also can no longer claim something has both mental and physical impacts, despite the many disabilities documented as having both.
- Even DWP admit they are investigating 60+ benefit-related suicides (despite having spent several years denying there have been any).
- Legal aid cuts, leading to ludicruous situations such as a pair of disabled parents having no elegibility for legal aid to fight to keep their child, never mind that they are both sufficiently mentally disabled as to be legally disqualified from appearing in court without a solicitor to speak for them (as the senior judge in the case remarked, this is likely in breach of both UNCRPD and ECHR).

I'm sorry, I really don't want to get into an argument over this, but the bright side you may see is not at all the reality disabled people like me have to live with, and what enabled all of these changes was LibDem support for the Tories. I don't see Liberalism, I don't see compromise, I see a craven grab for power whatever the cost to their principles, whatever the cost for other people, and I can never forgive them that.
Edited Date: 2015-01-27 10:02 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-27 11:51 pm (UTC)
davidgillon: A pair of crutches, hanging from coat hooks, reflected in a mirror (Default)
From: [personal profile] davidgillon
a lot of the rest is failing to oppose Conservative policies rather than actually Lib Dem led

I've always held the position that if you allow something to proceed, then you have to assume ethical responsibility for it, which is why I've never reacted well to the Lib Dems claiming that being in government has allowed them to do good. I won't deny there's good in some of the things they have achieved, but that good has been bought at the expense of the wellbeing of disabled people.

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-28 08:35 am (UTC)
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle
"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept" like that Australian general said.

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-28 04:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkeVA9zYUkiISkfulAA_v-iEv4OadlOSaU
The problem with this POV is that it basically seems inherent to the very concept of coalition. If we imagine a coalition between some hypothetical Big Evil Party and Small Good Party, I literally cannot see a way for the Small Good Party to work that doesn't involve letting through at least N Evil policies for each N Good policies. (Well, either that or actually breaking the terms of their coalition agreement, which might not affect their popular support but will very likely make all the Big Evil Parties refuse to coalish with them in future.)

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-28 05:35 pm (UTC)
davidgillon: A pair of crutches, hanging from coat hooks, reflected in a mirror (Default)
From: [personal profile] davidgillon
That's not quite my point. I'm saying that if you go into Coalition you have two ethical alternatives, walk away when faced with something unacceptable, or accept joint responsibility for all actions of that government (as you are enabling it to be a government).

However the Lib Dems seem to be trying for a third alternative, of taking credit for anything good, while blaming anything bad on those nasty Tories. My contempt for this approach knows no bounds.

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-29 10:19 pm (UTC)
rmc28: Rachel in hockey gear on the frozen fen at Upware, near Cambridge (Default)
From: [personal profile] rmc28
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply I thought all was sweetness and light; you have just listed a lot of the compromises I am most unhappy about. (I'm glad you know about George Potter's efforts though, he was far from alone)

(no subject)

Date: 2015-01-30 12:29 am (UTC)
davidgillon: A pair of crutches, hanging from coat hooks, reflected in a mirror (Default)
From: [personal profile] davidgillon
I was one of the people talking to George from the disability side of things pre-conference(s), so I'm very much aware that it wasn't a solo effort - and getting the vote through said as much, but unfortunately the way it was then ignored just reinforced the message of how much we can't trust the parliamentary Lib Dems to do anything other than run towards whoever offers them power, whatever the cost to ordinary people, whatever the rank-and-file members say.

From the point of view of disabled people, the damage the Lib Dems have done by enabling Tory attacks on disability (and not speaking out against Tory demonisation of disabled people) have far outweighed whatever good they might have achieved in other areas.

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Miscellaneous. Eclectic. Random. Perhaps markedly literate, or at least suffering from the compulsion to read any text that presents itself, including cereal boxes.

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