Christianity confuses me!

[liv]

So, months ago, rysmiel asked me to go into detail about what it is about Christianity that I find so off-putting. I've been thinking about this in the intervening months, and I think I'm about at the stage where I can try to write it up.

I am aware that there are a number of Christians (of various flavours) reading this. This isn't a disclaimer, as such; if you want to take offence at this little essay, you're probably entitled to. To a very large extent, I'm shelving all I have learnt in over a decade of serious commitment to Jewish-Christian dialogue, and reverting to my eight-year-old self who got into trouble for complaining to my form teacher, But your religion makes no sense! I do want to point out, though, that I don't mean this in any way as a personal slight against any Christian individual. I am also very well aware that Christianity isn't monolithic, and I do already realize that you could almost certainly point to a Christian who doesn't do or believe any one of the items on the list.

A parable that I rather like: To-what-may-this-be-compared? A traveller comes to a foreign country. He peeks in through the windows of a building, and sees people moving about in a bizarre way. These foreigners are right weird, he concludes, as he goes on his way. Later, a second traveller arrives at the same building. Instead of peeking through the windows, he knocks on the door. The foreigners welcome him in and he finds himself in a dance hall. At the moment I'm being the first traveller; Christianity looks weird to me because I don't hear the music.

• Translated texts. OK, some Christians don't take the Bible seriously, which is fine. But those who do think that Scripture has authority really confuse me when they don't bother to learn the original languages. I don't get how anyone is prepared to take someone else's word for what a sacred text actually says.
  
  
• Vows. Christians seem to be positively encouraged to make vows, and religious vows at that, all over the place. Vows that are not time-limited, vows that they have no way of being sure that they will be able to keep, vows that are too general so it's not clear what one is vowing. And there seems to be almost an expectation that vows will be broken. The kinds of Christians who accept divorce still make marriage vows, for example. Christians even make vows on behalf of others, which I find a seriously unpleasant concept.
  
  I know several people who prefer to publicly name themselves oathbreaker rather than live in a way that would be untrue to themselves. I have nothing but admiration for people who are brave enough to make that decision, but it seems to me a very bad thing for a religion to create the kind of situation where this is likely to be a frequent outcome. There are even, apparently, formal religious structures for abjuring / renouncing / annulling vows, which does suggest that the system is geared for vows not to be kept. And as for encouraging children to make vows they are too young to understand, that's simply obscene.
  
  
• Original Sin. Yeah, this is a pretty obvious one. Stereotypically, the Jewish / OT view of God is perceived as being too focussed on Justice (as opposed to Mercy). So maybe I'm living up to the stereotype a bit here, but I'm inclined to ask, Will not the Judge of all the earth do justice?; how can one follow a God who would be so utterly unfair as to blame the whole of humanity for something Adam and Eve did?
  
  
• Faith. Following on a bit from the previous one, I find it offensive that someone can live a completely blameless, even a saintly life, making the world a better place, and yet be condemned because they have wrong ideas about some extremely complicated matters of theology. I have no problem in principle that I don't understand how something like the Trinity is supposed to work, but I do have a problem if this means I'm going to Hell, however wonderful a person I may be. The converse, that someone who is absolutely horrible and vile, but manages all the mental gymnastics to understand and believe all the ins and outs of Christian teaching, can be forgiven, is less problematic; forgiveness is on the whole a good thing. It does seem a bit odd that it's predicated on having exactly the right views about such things as the nature of God, though, especially since I'm kind of inclined to think that anything that can reasonably be called God is probably beyond ordinary human understanding.
  
  
• Proselytizing. This is the big one, for me. However many aspects of Christianity I don't understand, (and there are lots I haven't listed here, because I'm focussing on the ones that really make my skin crawl), in general my attitude would be, well, that's because I'm ignorant, and trying to understand the Divine is so complicated that it's reasonable that different religions are going to come up with different approaches to spirituality. But proselytizing goes completely against that pluralism which is far more fundamental to who I am than any particular position I happen to take on any topic. I don't like proselytizing in general, but religious proselytizing is the very worst kind, it's an attack on something which, for those who are religious, is the very foundation of their life and identity.
  
  I suppose this does follow from the previous bullet-point; if one believes that theology is all-important, then it makes sense to want to bring as many people as possible to the 'correct' beliefs and thus to salvation. But it's so appallingly, sickeningly arrogant. (I'm not talking about the fact that certain evangelists use really crass methods of trying to get converts, I'm talking about the principle of holding that as an aim at all.) It's really, really hard for me to respect a belief system that is based on such a total lack of respect for not only my beliefs, but for those of anyone who thinks differently from the believer.
  
  Please feel absolutely free to argue with me, or tell me that I've got the wrong impression of how Christianity actually works, or whatever. Discussion is good.

Comments

Re:

[neonchameleon.livejournal.com]

preferable to saying that non-Christians are intrinsically inferior, no matter how exemplary their life

Ask any who say that (or that only Christians can be saved) just why they are putting limits on Divine Grace.

Whereas if you're Christian, you have to accept all that doctrine wholesale or else stop being Christian.

Depends on what you mean by "all that doctrine" and which church. Judaism isn't just a religion, it's a culture as well, and it is hard to say that someone isn't a member of a culture. A better perspective would be to say that they aren't an Orthodox Jew or the like.

'Sides, there have been at least two heretical Anglican/Episcopalian bishops in the last 20 years (and I think it's three). If the Bishop of Durham can claim not to believe in the Resurection...

[liv]

saying that non-Christians are intrinsically inferior, no matter how exemplary their life
Ask any who say that (or that only Christians can be saved) just why they are putting limits on Divine Grace.
Oh dear, now we're into Capitalized Christian Concepts. I was afraid that would happen. One of the major obstacles I have found to getting more of a handle on Christianity has been that when I ask about something, it often turns out that there's some CCC that I don't understand. I'm never going to make sense of what's confusing me until I understand the concept of Salvation, or Faith, or Love, or... Grace.

The CCCs are mostly things that have correlates in normal English, except that they seem to mean something entirely different when they're capitalized. And I suppose they're part of the reason why I listed Faith as one of the aspects of Christianity that bother me. I mean, if in order to feel any less alienated by Christianity (let alone achieve whatever goal it is that Christians think I should be aiming for) I have to understand these CCCs, which no-one seems to be able to explain to me, what hope is there?

The thing is, I wasn't talking about any sort of limits on anything to do with God. I was talking about limits on humanity; my understanding is that, because of original sin, people who are not Christian are inferior in God's eyes. So how does that connect to putting limits on Divine Grace? And would you care to have a try at explaining what you, at least, mean by Divine Grace? I'd appreciate it. Even if the answer is 'if you have it, you just know', at least that would be something I could interact with logically.

That said, there's also a fairly strong philosophical tradition within Judaism (the Kabbalists ran away with it, but it's in other places too) that it is necessary to invoke some kind of limit to the Divine, so's to speak, in order that physical reality can exist. But that's starting to get complicated.

[chess]

I mean, if in order to feel any less alienated by Christianity (let alone achieve whatever goal it is that Christians think I should be aiming for) I have to understand these CCCs, which no-one seems to be able to explain to me, what hope is there?

I haven't come across a particular reluctance to try and explain Capitalised Christian Concepts; if you're still interested, give me a list and possibly what your current definitions are, and I'll give it a go.

[liv]

Hello Michelle, welcome to my journal, and thanks for this comment. I'm sorry I didn't get back to you before; I haven't forgotten about the discussion, it's just been a crazy couple of weeks.

I haven't come across a particular reluctance to try and explain Capitalised Christian Concepts
I didn't mean that Christians are reluctant do explain, just they are not able to explain in a way that I understand, even though they make genunine and sincere efforts to explain. Because words don't derive meaning from definition, they derive meaning from usage. I'm starting to suspect that CCCs are so tied in to the whole Christian context that there's simply no analogy in the world I'm familiar with to allow me to get a handle on them. It's also perfectly possible that I'm just stupid, of course!

Just as an example, this is a real discussion I had recently with a (perfectly lovely and well-intentioned, I should add) Christian:

Fluffy Christian: Of course, the really important point behind all this is that the Word became flesh.

me: Can you elaborate a bit what it means to you when you say "The Word became flesh?"

FC: Well, I suppose, saying "The Word became flesh" is just a way of speaking, what it really means is that the Logos was Incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ.

me (in my head): Just how do you think that saying the same thing in Latin and Greek is supposed to clarify your original statement?

me (out loud): I'm sorry, I still don't understand...

if you're still interested
Most certainly still interested. It's very discouraging to spend this much time observing and studying another religion, and still being this clueless about how it fits together!

give me a list
OK, list in a new comment so I don't run out of room here.

I'll give it a go
Thanks, that's a very kind offer! I hope I won't annoy you too much if I'm slow to understand.

[liv]

Word
Normal meaning: a collection of sounds with a meaning established by the consensus of people who use it, usually mapping on to a fairly simple concept
My best guess at a Christian meaning: the means by which God interacts with creation; (also scripture, prophesy)

Faith
Normal meaning: belief in something that one is not compelled by evidence to believe; expectation that a person will be adequate to the task that is expected of them
Christian meaning: something similar to the above, but wrt God / Jesus specifically; something that Christians possess

Grace
Normal meaning: elegance, beauty of movement or form
Christian meaning: an aspect of the interaction of God with people; divine favour or generosity; a property that makes things have quasi-miraculous effects; something that Christians possess

Salvation
Normal meaning: rare, almost always used as a directly religious metaphor; rescue from extreme danger, possibly
Christian meaning: being eligible for heaven or other reward; being excused / forgiven from sin.

Love
Normal meaning: this one's a bit of a cheat, because it's pretty ill-defined even in the normal world! Um, affectionate commitment to another person?
Christian meaning: an aspect of the relationship of a worshipper with God; evangelism

Son
Normal meaning: male offspring
Christian meaning: a person who simultaneously both is God and is in a close relationship with God

Suffering
Normal meaning: something extremely unpleasant; the totality of unpleasant experiences
Christian meaning: unpleasant experiences which have a range of theologically positive effects (counteracting sin, furthering God's plan, sustaining free will, demonstrating love)

***

There are probably more, but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Sorry if my guesses at Christian meanings sound a bit irreverent; I'm really trying to get my head round this, and I'm confused, I'm not trying to be critical.

[chess]

Word: used at the start of the book of John to mean Jesus, trying to imply that just as the words written down in the Jewish scriptures as the words of God were very important, in the same way Jesus was important - everything he said and did was a word from God, because He was the word of God himself. So 'Word', capilalised, often covers all kinds of communication from God, usually in an intellectual rather than an emotional sense; all the information that God has conveyed can be referred to as his Word, and Jesus is referred to as the Word because he is a particularly rich information source.

Faith: You've pretty much got this one; belief in God/Jesus not necessarily compelled by evidence in the same way you 'believe' in a table. It's also often used as a shorthand for 'Christian-ness' - the property of being a Christian - because it's generally held that such belief (in their goodness and that they should be followed as well as their existance) is equivalent to 'being a Christian', and the rest is just trappings.

Grace: I've most commonly heard this explained as 'an unearned gift'. It does seem to be entirely divorced from the everyday meaning of the word apart from that they're both considered to be positive. I don't think I can explain this better than 'an unearned gift' - various people assign various meanings to it, but that's the core meaning. 'By God's grace' therefore means 'by God's generosity to those who don't deserve it', basically.

Salvation: also 'being saved', the process of becoming a Christian (and hence being forgiven for sins and made eligible for Heaven), or the bestowing of the ability to take part in that process.

Love: There are three words (at least) translated 'love' in the New Testemant; I think they're philos, eros and agape. The capital-letter Love that God has for us is the third kind; a completely unconditional love, which is not self-seeking in any way (basically, love as defined by 1 Corinthians 13). This is probably the kind of love you were asking about, and there isn't a short definition, really.

Son: The term 'Jesus is the son of God' is trying to relate the idea of family which we're familiar with to the idea of two (well, three) people who are the same person (I'm sure you've heard the lame air/water/ice analogy before). Christians are also called 'sons of God', in a more 'adopted' sense; compare the 'family of friends' concept that seems to be doing the rounds at the moment.

Suffering: Nobody actually *knows* why people suffer. Christians mostly like to think up excuses for it because it's admittedly sometimes hard to reconcile the idea of a loving, omnipotent God with suffering. However, it still means the same thing, however people try and excuse it.

I hope that's been helpful in some way; feel free to ask for more clarifications; sorry it took me so long to get around to it.

[liv]

Judaism isn't just a religion, it's a culture as well, and it is hard to say that someone isn't a member of a culture.
Um. People keep telling me that Judaism is a culture, which I suppose is fair enough. But are you seriously telling me that Christianity isn't a culture?

The idea that a religion can exist entirely outside culture seems implausible to me. I find it less difficult to grasp the idea that one's religion could be restricted to cultic matters, without any influence on culture and daily life, but I personally would find it hard to have much respect for any religion that worked like that.

A better perspective would be to say that they aren't an Orthodox Jew or the like.
I think you've slightly misunderstood what is meant by the term Orthodox Jew. I mean, it's an easy enough mistake to make, because the very word Orthodox looks like it ought to mean 'believing the right stuff'. But that's not in fact what Orthodox Judaism is. You'll probably find as many Orthodox Jews who don't believe in anything as you will in other movements; possibly you'll even find more, because a lot of the time belief is simply not discussed in that sector of the community.

There are indeed a few groups within Judaism who put more emphasis on belief than the norm; the Liberals used to, but that was when they were explicitly modelling themselves off the C of E. You will also find groups within Judaism who hold that those who are not part of their group are not Jewish. But those are pretty fringe; on the whole Jews (of the intolerant sort) are much more likely to argue that those who are not part of their group are bad Jews than not Jewish at all. And the basis of the argument will usually be that the bad Jews are doing the wrong things, not that they have erroneous theology.