liv: In English: My fandom is text obsessed / In Hebrew: These are the words (words)
[personal profile] liv
As every year, I found Holocaust Memorial Day very alienating. But I did come across a couple of essays I wanted to share (if you can cope with reading about genocide):

Ari Richter: Never again will I visit Auschwitz. (Graphic essay, will transcribe / describe the images in a comment.) Richter talks about how the concentration camp has been commodified as a tourist experience and incorporated into Polish nationalist propaganda.

[twitter.com profile] delafina777: Comparing Jewish and Christian responses to the Holocaust. Price expresses something I also feel, but haven't been able to articulate fully:
The idea that the Shoah is inexplicable--while individual people's stories need to be told, I find the idea of making the entire thing into a cohesive narrative--especially one with a moral--unethical.
(Twitter thread; some people consider it unethical to transform long Twitter threads into more accessible formats, so if you want to read it but can't deal with Twitter formatting, I'll PM you a plain text copy.)

Let me emphasise here that I am absolutely NOT saying that non-Jews shouldn't commemorate the Nazi Holocaust. I'm in no sense the boss of Holocaust commemoration anyway, but my opinion is the opposite of that. Anyone who has any connection at all to the perpetrators or the victims absolutely should learn about and remember and respond to that history. So that's pretty much all Europeans, all Christians, everyone who identifies with any of the minorities persecuted and murdered by the Nazis. Indeed, I would say that Holocaust Memorial Day is probably mainly for non-Jews. We have our own day when we commemorate in a community context.

What I'm saying, and why those links resonated with me, is that the Holocaust was senseless murder and cruelty on a scale we can't really get our heads round. Trying to make commemoration (whether visiting sites or holding ceremonies or whatever) into an uplifting, meaningful "experience", whether religious or psychological, is, IMO, deeply disrespectful. And yes, that is a problem when Jews do it too; I've been left feeling sickened and alienated by Jewish ceremonies with beautiful, sad-sounding violin music and poetry readings and arranging the memorial candles to create an ambience. To quote Price again, our duty is to help make sure the violence is *stopped,* not to tear up like it's a sad scene in a TV show (in context she's talking about Christians, but I think it's true of everybody.)

Part of it is... for the first 30 years of my life, my social circle included a fair number of Survivors. The Holocaust, the Shoah, wasn't some tragic episode in history, or an abstract theological problem, it was the personal experience of many of the people I interacted with regularly. I remember R' G., an exceptionally gentle and loving person, barely holding back from physically attacking some contrarian undergraduate who thought it was clever to ask whether anything good came from the Holocaust. I remember Sarah FB talking about how she only took LSD once in the 60s, because under the influence she had flashbacks to Kristallnacht which she had lived through at the age of three. I remember Alice W reminding us young 'uns that it's important to take good care of your teeth, because when she was in the [concentration] camp her friend had such bad toothache that she climbed the fence in a fake escape attempt to get herself shot.

All those people are gone now. They died of old age, incredibly, they lived to see several decades after a powerful nation / empire put serious effort into trying to murder them. I mean, there are still people alive who remember the Holocaust but only just – there's a member of our community who believes she is the youngest Survivor, having been born three days before the liberation of Auschwitz. Which, as all the HMD material pointed out, was 75 years ago. But because of the time that's elapsed, the Holocaust seems to have morphed into this distant thing, just history that people have feelings or opinions about. Just one more bad thing in the list of bad stuff that's part of human experience, like bullying or earthquakes. And I think a lot of people who didn't grow up in the kind of Jewish community I did probably didn't regularly socialize with Survivors. They maybe met one educator who came to speak at their school one day, or not even that. And people want stuff they learn about to be meaningful, they want to fit information into the rest of their experience. That's a very natural response, but because to me it's something that really happened to people I care about, I find that imposition of meaning really hard to cope with.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-29 06:35 pm (UTC)
batdina: (Default)
From: [personal profile] batdina
I haven't been to any camp, and doubt I'll ever make the effort. I, too, grew up with survivors, and the valorisation of the camps themselves as holy sites makes me queasy.

That said, I'm still not entirely convinced that there won't be a place for that kind of valorisation in the next century as the Shoah completely fades into history. Ocular proof as Othello said.

At any rate, thanks for this. I avoided most of the hoopla this year for reasons I couldn't articulate, so thank you for articulating at least a part of what I was feeling.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-29 06:49 pm (UTC)
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)
From: [personal profile] redbird
Thanks for putting this behind a cut; I may or may not read it later.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-29 06:59 pm (UTC)
independence1776: Drawing of Maglor with a harp on right, words "sing of honor lost" and "Noldolantë" on the left and bottom, respectively (Default)
From: [personal profile] independence1776
I would appreciate a plain text copy of the Twitter thread, please.

I avoided it, too; I didn't want to do performative mourning. And I have an uncomfortable relationship (that's the only way at the moment I can think to phrase it) with the Holocaust because I'm a convert: it both is and isn't mine. I'm far more comfortable with YomHaShoah; I agree that Holocaust Memorial Day feels more for everyone else.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-29 07:20 pm (UTC)
ambyr: a dark-winged man standing in a doorway over water; his reflection has white wings (watercolor by Stephanie Pui-Mun Law) (Default)
From: [personal profile] ambyr
Thank you for sharing these links.

I've never been to a camp. When I was thirteen, my parents and I went to Munich with my grandmother, a survivor, at her request. She said she wanted to see Dachau; my dad was incredulous but agreed to the trip. Instead, we spent a day driving around Munich looking for the Displaced Persons camp she'd lived in after the war. We found it. She looked at the house where she'd lived as a refugee. And then the next morning she woke up and said, "Forget about Dachau, let's get out of this country right now," so we left. I expect that's the closest I'll ever get.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-29 10:03 pm (UTC)
iddewes: (robin)
From: [personal profile] iddewes
Wow. I visited Auschwitz in 1999; it was a lot different then. No big crowds. I arrived at Oswiecim on the train and walked from the station. There was a guided tour at 11:00 and there were no buses between the camps - someone from my tour group gave me a lift, and I got a taxi back. And I swear they were not so big on the Polish propaganda then either.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-29 10:18 pm (UTC)
meepettemu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] meepettemu
Thank you for this. My housemate is German and we’ve talked about this a few times. Much of what is here we have said but it also gave me some new things to think about

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-30 01:39 am (UTC)
nicki: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nicki
I went to Auschwitz and Birkenau in 2018. Auschwitz is definitely very sanitized for tourists, people should definitely also see Birkenau, it's a little less museumed up. The other camp I had seen, in 1987, was a diplomatic prisoners concentration camp outside Brussels and I think it probably gave a better feel for conditions because they had maintained it, rather than improving it for tourists.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-31 09:44 am (UTC)
lovingboth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lovingboth
What makes me uncomfortable about it is how much of it centres on Auschwitz-Birkenau. Yes, it needs commemorating, but it was also very different from the rest of the Holocaust.

Five years ago, the number of survivors from there who returned for the seventieth anniversary was twice the number who lived to 1945 from the Reinhardt camps in Poland, despite the way that roughly twice as many were murdered in those. Similarly the Einsatzgruppen victims barely get a mention.

The two places I've visited and would recommend for not being commodified are both in Berlin: the House of the Wannsee Conference and the Jewish Museum. The latter uses architecture in a particularly effective way.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-02-01 12:01 am (UTC)
hairyears: Spilosoma viginica caterpillar: luxuriant white hair and a 'Dougal' face with antennae. Small, hairy, and venomous (Default)
From: [personal profile] hairyears
There were far, far fewer survivors from the Reinhard camps: to the best of my knowledge, only 70 people, out of over seven hundred thousand prisoners who entered Treblinka, were alive at the end of the war.

Sobibor, ten or so fewer; and out of the half-million who went to Bełżec, I hear no more than seven lived to see the war's end, and even that number is disputed.

Likewise, Chełmno: I know of it through the personal testimony of a man who referred to it as Kulmhof; and that testimony, in a communist regime, led to him ending up in a Midlands rag-town, far from the country he grew up in, where all the politically-inconvenient refugees end up.

The effort that went into suppressing the significance of these sites in postwar Poland is disturbing: further, most of those who were sent there were Polish and, after the war, they had compelling reasons to stay quiet about it.

Those reasons may well be relevant again, today, if any of them are still living.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-31 09:24 pm (UTC)
adrian_turtle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] adrian_turtle
Like you and Price, I'm uncomfortable with forcing the Shoah into a cohesive narrative, but I don't see the same problems Price does. I see PLENTY of problems with the attempt to package it as a cohesive narrative at all, to make it a neat story with monstrous Nazis murdering innocent victims.

1) To say it's one story, any one story, is to leave out important stuff. It's just too big for a single narrative. We say you won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big space is, and space is mostly empty. The Shoah is too big to think about all at once, and every bit of it is made of human beings.

2) When we call people "monsters," we imply they are incomprehensibly unlike human beings. Unfortunately, human beings have the capacity for bullying and toadying and selfishness and xenophobia and cruelty. Those aren't inhuman. The Nazi Monster story pushes us to say, "don't worry, they aren't genocidal monsters or anything," when people set up ethnic cleansing and are kind to animals.

3) I have a problem with the idea that victims only matter if they are perfectly innocent and idealized martyrs. The Nazis murdered people of heroic virtue who would risk their lives to help others, and they murdered thieves and tax cheats and military deserters. Decades later: "The people in those camps are no angels, some of them defaulted on loans or forged documents. How dare you compare us to Nazis?"

Edited Date: 2020-01-31 09:25 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2020-01-31 11:15 pm (UTC)
adrian_turtle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] adrian_turtle
My biggest point of disagreement with Price is about how Jews and Christians view the Shoah. I have heard so, SO many Jews speak of the victims of the Nazis as "martyrs." As if they chose their sacrifice. As if their sacrifice saved us. More or less explicitly saying the Jewish people needed to rise from the ashes of Europe to become a free people in our own land. I can't reject this interpretation as non-Jewish just because I don't like it. I first heard it in religious school.


I don't understand what she means by saying the Shoah is not reflected in the liturgy. I know the idea that "the" liturgy was fixed by the time of the Baal Shem Tov (of blessed memory) and anything else you want to say is technically between liturgy rather than "liturgy." I'm accustomed to seeing a lot of Holocaust references in the Haggadah, and at Yom Kippur afternoon services.

(no subject)

Date: 2020-02-01 10:41 pm (UTC)
lethargic_man: (reflect)
From: [personal profile] lethargic_man
there are still people alive who remember the Holocaust but only just [...] because of the time that's elapsed, the Holocaust seems to have morphed into this distant thing, just history that people have feelings or opinions about.

I think this depends on whether one has survivors in one's life or not. One of the shuls I occasionally attend here had their last survivor die about a year ago, and it was a big thing for them, marking the end of an era; whereas my shul still has a member who lived through the labour camps. (He used to come every Shabbos; having lost most of his mobility, he's only an occasional attendee now.)

Two or three years ago, someone at work said "Gesundheit!" particularly forcefully when someone sneezed, and a German colleague said "If you're going to say it like that, you have to add 'Mein Führer!'" I was a bit taken aback; I said nothing at the time, but subsequently sent him a message saying that although it's distant history for him, it's still living memory for some people (by chance I had had the Holocaust survivor I mentioned above as a Friday night dinner guest the previous week, so I mentioned that). I also told him that I'm rare as a Jew in not having close family who died in the Holocaust; and also talked about what it is to be a second generation survivor (which is something that, even as a Jew myself, I had no idea about until I got to know R. Jonathan Wittenberg). My colleague subsequently apologised, but again, my point is that without having had Holocaust survivors in his life, his attitude to the Holocaust was much different from mine.

I wonder how it's going to be for my son, for whom there are unlikely to be any living survivors for him to know by the time he's going to be old enough to learn about the Holocaust.
Edited Date: 2020-02-01 10:42 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2020-02-03 05:47 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
A thing I have found particularly pernicious with regard to mass tragedy and especially mass killing by ideologues is the ease in which each event becomes disconnected from its context and history. (And that this is accelerated when there are ideological interests in making sure the throughlines are obscured as much as possible.) Remembering what happened is often an exercise in "this is the past, the evil people who committed this were stopped, and so many more people were saved than were killed," rather than saying "this event is one node in an interconnected web of violence that spans history" and then doing some hard thinking about how best to prevent the violence from happening again.

I don't know what the magic is to get people to realize that they can think of themselves as fundamentally good people and still excuse or perpetuate fundamentally terrible things, but that seems like one of the necessary things to learn.

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Miscellaneous. Eclectic. Random. Perhaps markedly literate, or at least suffering from the compulsion to read any text that presents itself, including cereal boxes.

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