Diary: couply weekend
Nov. 21st, 2004 09:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
livSo ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lethargic_man came up for the weekend and it was utterly lovely.
This weekend included:
Lots of wandering around Dundee in the most utterly gorgeous winter sunlight. Some of the wandering was in the Botanic gardens, and some across various pretty or interesting parts of town, and we took in the Sensation Science museum, which is rather kid-focused but not bad for that, and we got to play withcompilerbitch's face-morphing machines. And Saturday afternoon we walked out to Broughty Ferry and watched the sun set over the Tay firth (which wasn't quite so disgustingly soppy as it probably sounds!) and had a meal there after Shabbat.
No snow despite the weather forecast's promises, but not much actual warmth either.
Some astronomy. Since Shabbat came in so early, we had a bit of slack time on Friday evening and used it to visit the Observatory and look through big telescopes at the moon and the Pleiades. I very nearly wimped out of going since it was seriously cold by the time it was dark, butlethargic_man talked me back into it, and I'm extremely glad he did.
Plenty of snuggling. Given that we only see eachother once a month, and the various other constraints, it's easy to forget that our relationship actually has a physical dimension as well as all the other good things.
Lots of silliness and laughing together.
Some chevruta.lethargic_man has been doing some learning with the Masorti crowd and had all kinds of cool stuff to pass on to me, about things like the Masorti approach to halacha, women's participation in liturgy, and the ethical aspects of keeping kosher, so that was fun.
Lots and lots and lots and lots of conversation, some of which was even about topics unrelated torysmiel. Yay spending the whole weekend talking.
Not nearly enough sleep, but it was so worth it to be able to cram as much interaction as possible into a couple of days.
***
We also revisted the discussion about our relationship having a defined expiry date, and concluded that the end of the year is probably better defined than the other date we were previously thinking of. So there won't be many more weekends like this, or many more occasions to annoy people who object to posts as soppy as this. It was a good discussion to have even if my heart aches at the moment. Most of my literal muscles ache too, but in spite of these things and in spite of the rather scary implications of a couple of points in this paragraph, I'm quite ridiculously happy.
To compound the happiness of this weekend even further,lethargic_man brought me proper challah, and returned to me my Sisters of Mercy CD which I'd been missing somewhat.
lethargic_man came up for the weekend and it was utterly lovely. This weekend included:
Lots of wandering around Dundee in the most utterly gorgeous winter sunlight. Some of the wandering was in the Botanic gardens, and some across various pretty or interesting parts of town, and we took in the Sensation Science museum, which is rather kid-focused but not bad for that, and we got to play with
compilerbitch's face-morphing machines. And Saturday afternoon we walked out to Broughty Ferry and watched the sun set over the Tay firth (which wasn't quite so disgustingly soppy as it probably sounds!) and had a meal there after Shabbat.No snow despite the weather forecast's promises, but not much actual warmth either.
Some astronomy. Since Shabbat came in so early, we had a bit of slack time on Friday evening and used it to visit the Observatory and look through big telescopes at the moon and the Pleiades. I very nearly wimped out of going since it was seriously cold by the time it was dark, but
lethargic_man talked me back into it, and I'm extremely glad he did.Plenty of snuggling. Given that we only see eachother once a month, and the various other constraints, it's easy to forget that our relationship actually has a physical dimension as well as all the other good things.
Lots of silliness and laughing together.
Some chevruta.
lethargic_man has been doing some learning with the Masorti crowd and had all kinds of cool stuff to pass on to me, about things like the Masorti approach to halacha, women's participation in liturgy, and the ethical aspects of keeping kosher, so that was fun.Lots and lots and lots and lots of conversation, some of which was even about topics unrelated to
rysmiel. Yay spending the whole weekend talking.Not nearly enough sleep, but it was so worth it to be able to cram as much interaction as possible into a couple of days.
***
We also revisted the discussion about our relationship having a defined expiry date, and concluded that the end of the year is probably better defined than the other date we were previously thinking of. So there won't be many more weekends like this, or many more occasions to annoy people who object to posts as soppy as this. It was a good discussion to have even if my heart aches at the moment. Most of my literal muscles ache too, but in spite of these things and in spite of the rather scary implications of a couple of points in this paragraph, I'm quite ridiculously happy.
To compound the happiness of this weekend even further,
lethargic_man brought me proper challah, and returned to me my Sisters of Mercy CD which I'd been missing somewhat.
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(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-21 10:29 pm (UTC)I'm sorry about the sadness connected with the expiry date.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-21 10:37 pm (UTC)Expiry date? Should I be tactful and not ask?
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-21 10:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-21 11:02 pm (UTC)I echo that...
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-21 11:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 01:07 am (UTC)Expiry date: that's a very safe approach, but you know what I think.
Challah: yay! Mine were stones this weekend. It was horrible! I just baked a better one, a monster, which I'm going to freeze for next week.
Learning: what did you learn? telltell!
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 01:12 pm (UTC)I am? Well, yes, not specifically this sort of thing. I don't see why you can't make this post public if you want.
Most of my literal muscles ache too
Mine don't. ;^b See, told you you need to get out of the house and do more exercise.
Challah
Date: 2004-11-22 01:30 pm (UTC)<has a look at your userinfo to see where you are*> Answer: Here (http://www.rhc.org.uk/shop.php), most probably.
I know it's a celebratory food in Jewish tradition, so I have never been quite sure whether it's something that it's okay for non-Jews to buy and serve in non-Jewish-celebratory situations;
Perfectly. It's not sacramental in the way that Christian holy bread is.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 01:36 pm (UTC)I'll leave
And happy belated birthday, btw.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 01:39 pm (UTC)*blush* 'nk you.
Expiry date? Should I be tactful and not ask?
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 03:41 pm (UTC)Note to self: must try harder.
We also revisted the discussion about our relationship having a defined expiry date, and concluded that the end of the year is probably better defined than the other date we were previously thinking of. So there won't be many more weekends like this, or many more occasions to annoy people who object to posts as soppy as this. It was a good discussion to have even if my heart aches at the moment. Most of my literal muscles ache too, but in spite of these things and in spite of the rather scary implications of a couple of points in this paragraph, I'm quite ridiculously happy.
This, I am afraid, is one of those places where one or both of you are off in an emotional reality that I do not think it is possible to get to starting from where I am; I do worry for you, as you are neither of you people I wish to see hurting, but I shall take your word on the ridiculously happy and try not to let that concern grow too large or in inappropriate directions.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 04:42 pm (UTC)In which direction?
It didn't help that every time I vanished for five minutes, I came back to find
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 05:00 pm (UTC)I think I should just smile and look enigmatic here.
It didn't help that every time I vanished for five minutes, I came back to find livredor's nose buried in your novel, nor that I couldn't resist repeatedly leafing through it myself looking for what has changed...
I am duly complimented. [ Apart from a little tightening here and there, most of what's changed is in part I: one entirely new chapter, and the Arkwright ones gone. ]
Re: Challah
Date: 2004-11-22 05:53 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 10:25 pm (UTC)*bounce* *basks in reflected glory* Thank you, that's a really lovely thing to say!
Expiry date? Should I be tactful and not ask?
Nah, you can ask as tactlessly as you like. Part of the reason I wrote the comment was to make myself accept the imminent breakup as an actual fact, ie something I talk about, rather than something I'm pretending isn't there. Besides, the number of other people who also want to know suggests that it's a particularly useful question!
*sigh* So, the story is that
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 10:30 pm (UTC)Well, I'm having a go at explaining, but I'm certainly not going to turn down any help if you want to chip in.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 10:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 10:40 pm (UTC)Yay, twas indeed lovely.
I assumed your thesis had eaten you.
I think it may soon. I'm getting a bit panicky, plus the Überboss is around until the Christmas break, so I really, really want to get as much done as I can before he disappears forever. Preferably all of it.
Glad you managed to escape for a bit.
Yay, I had nearly three days of utter skiviness! It was very lovely indeed.
Expiry date: that's a very safe approach, but you know what I think.
At this moment, it's tempting to wish you were right.
Challah: yay! Mine were stones this weekend.
Sorry to hear that. I think you do quite well on balance, though, considering that you do homemade challah quite a reasonable proportion of the time, whereas I get excited about very occasional shop challah. But have fun freezing your monster challah, anyway!
Masorti halacha
Date: 2004-11-22 10:58 pm (UTC)Probably not much that's new to you.
Let's see. Masorti people basically talk about halacha in the same words as Reform people, but they mean different things by the same words, largely. The idea of the chain of tradition as an interlocking web rather than a linear progression (I'm not sure myself that it's true that the Orthodox view or the Torah miSinai view imply linearity, but never mind). The word Masorti as a reference to the opening of Pirke Avot.
What this seems to mean is sometimes ignoring strict chronology, kind of, if we like the way they did things in the 15th century better than the way they did things in either the 19th century or the first, then hey, we'll use the 15th century minhag. The usual Masorti thing of, if we can find any rabbi anywhere who ever ruled the way we like, we're justified in calling it halachic.
Interpreting halacha in the light of science and appropriately for modern society; that's fairly standard Masorti stuff, and M's shiurs didn't really seem to expand on that much.
Contrast between 'open' Torah, descriptive records of the state of the debate through most of the first millennium, and the 'closed', proscriptive legal codes which start from Mishneh Torah and go on into the modern day. Return to a more open system of halacha. Shulchan Aruch described as 'anal and pedantic to the point of blasphemy', which is a lovely phrase even if not a rigourous justifcation for rejecting SA!
women in liturgy
Date: 2004-11-22 11:10 pm (UTC)Also, evidence both from within Jewish sources, and external stuff like Josephus and the NT, that women attended Temple services and participated in synagogue worship ever since there were synagogues.
Lack of early sources about segregating women, extreme lack of any pre-modern sources about mechitza. Sources that do exist about minimal mechitza not preventing women from following what's going on, just symbolic barrier. Sarky comments about how Shira Chadasha are fine with calling women up and women leading, but still can't get rid of mechitza (my comment: not at all the same issue).
Masorti are not completely decided about egalitarianism (as is obvious to anyone who's spent time in the Masorti community). A bit of weird stuff about how being sexist makes it impossible to fit in with modern society in the same way that keeping an unreasonable level of kashrut would. I really don't think the two cases are at all analogous, but hey.
The ethical kashrut stuff I'm very familiar with, since I've been into ethical kashrut since I was fifteen. But it's nice to be reminded I'm not the only person in the world doing it. And we looked at a responsum which ruled that factory farmed veal should always be regarded as treif, with digressions into the intersection between kashrut and tzaar baalei chayim. Unfortunately M couldn't remember where this responsum was from; it's interesting in different ways depdending if it's Orthodox, Masorti or Conservative.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 11:18 pm (UTC)K. I only locked it for your sake, so if you don't mind I'll public it.
See, told you you need to get out of the house and do more exercise.
Yes, I know. One of the scary implications I alluded to in my final note is the fact that I'm this tired after a gentle stroll of a few miles. That says very bad things about the kind of shape I'm in, and I think may even give me the oomph to actually do something about my lack of exercise!
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-22 11:40 pm (UTC)one or both of you are off in an emotional reality that I do not think it is possible to get to starting from where I am
I think it would be good for me to have another go at explaining this plan to you. Not denying the possibility that we may be thinking in ways that simply don't make sense to you, regardless of how well explained. But yeah.
I do worry for you
I think I would worry about us too. I mean, neither of us really has much clue about this sort of thing. And it has occurred to me that we're handling the situation in a pretty unconventional way, and maybe there's a reason why most people don't react like this.
you are neither of you people I wish to see hurting
Thanks, I appreciate both the sentiment and the delicacy of expression. I can't promise you that we're going to be ok, both of us, but I do honestly believe we will be.
try not to let that concern grow too large or in inappropriate directions
Well, thank you for being concerned, I am touched by that.
Re: Masorti halacha
Date: 2004-11-23 01:44 am (UTC)I went to a shiur just today by a woman named Tamar Ross (http://www.biu.ac.il/HU/pg/phil-jew/jphi-staff/ross.html), who was plugging her new book (http://www.upne.com/1-58465-389-2.html) - she argued that Torah is progressive revelation based on many factors, including necessarily chronological ones. She's pretty Orthodox.
What this seems to mean is sometimes ignoring strict chronology, kind of, if we like the way they did things in the 15th century better than the way they did things in either the 19th century or the first, then hey, we'll use the 15th century minhag. The usual Masorti thing of, if we can find any rabbi anywhere who ever ruled the way we like, we're justified in calling it halachic.
I haven't learned a massive amount of modern Orthodox paskening, but I don't think that approach is limited to Masorti. It seems that far more Orthodox reasoning than Orthodox people like to admit follows the model "Opinion X is not inconceivable from the gemara and is supported by rabbi Y, and (here's the bit that makes it Orthodox) a lot of people do it, therefore it's ok." Rabbi Y doesn't have to be mainstream. I'm put in mind of the Mishnah Berurah, who seems to behave like this reasonably often when he has a mind to be lenient. Orthodox just uses more formal language. (an aside: a teshuva that says, essentially, 'We know that smoking is incredibly dangerous and will kill you, but we want to permit it, and since rabbis in history smoked, we're going to let you smoke' is hardly rigorous justification)
Shulchan Aruch described as 'anal and pedantic to the point of blasphemy', which is a lovely phrase even if not a rigourous justifcation for rejecting SA!
Oh, that's not fair, come on. If you had to make decisions about which way your community was actually going to do things (or write down what they were already doing), you'd come across pretty anal too. It's not the SA's job to give you all the available options, and it's not his fault that he came to be accepted as the Last Word in Paskening. In the introduction to the SA he even says that he doesn't want to be authoritative for everyone everywhere (thanks W). The Beit Yosef (the SA's other bestseller) is much broader and tells you whence everything was derived (according to the SA's understanding) and doesn't pretend to pasken. Granted, what people did with the SA afterwards was highly unfortunate, but that's not really the SA's fault.
Re: women in liturgy
Date: 2004-11-23 02:17 am (UTC)Yes, but you're telling me something else that's really interesting - you're telling me what Masorti thinks people need to be taught about, and what they're saying about those issues. This interests me very much.
What exactly was the role of the ezrat nashim in the Temple...symbolic barrier.
That's so funny, W's reading matter for school tomorrow deals with all those issues in extreme detail.
Sarky comments about how Shira Chadasha are fine with calling women up and women leading, but still can't get rid of mechitza (my comment: not at all the same issue).
That's really not funny, and so simplistic as to be insulting. Shira Chadasha wants to make a difference in Orthodoxy by introducing certain significant practices within the bounds of halachic reasoning. Shira Chadasha, therefore, has to stay within the bounds of Orthodoxy, as defined by its proponents. Historically, the political dividing line between the Orthodox and Conservative movements was marked by mechitza, because in the 50s and 60s that was the issue shuls were divided over. The line was not drawn over women's participation, because back then no-one in either movement thought that women could participate. The issue was family seating, which the Orthodox (broadly) did not want, and the Conservative (broadly) did. Orthodox shuls came to be distinguishable from Conservative shuls by the presence or absence of mechitza, not by egalitarianism. The legacy of this is a cultural view that a mechitza is somehow important in defining who you are. Shira Chadasha wants to remain identified as arguably Orthodox so that it can influence the Orthodox community, and removing its mechitza would put it on the wrong side of an already-drawn political line. Their steering board has long discussions about how far they can push the sociological boundaries, and that's one they can't cross without becoming completely pointless.
A bit of weird stuff about how being sexist makes it impossible to fit in with modern society in the same way that keeping an unreasonable level of kashrut would. I really don't think the two cases are at all analogous, but hey.
Er. Well. I guess that depends how you define "fit in". This sounds rather horribly reactionary, and not very pluralist. It's possible to reject Masorti's views on egalitarianism without being a sexist pig (the opinion, in more refined language, of Joel Roth, who wrote the teshuva which resulted in Conservative egalitarianism), but it doesn't sound like that was the message. Who taught these shiurim?
Unfortunately M couldn't remember where this responsum was from; it's interesting in different ways depdending if it's Orthodox, Masorti or Conservative.
Rabbi David Golinkin. Here's a link to the responsum (http://www.responsafortoday.com/moment/3_2.htm). He's Israeli Masorti, right-wing, good reasoner.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-23 02:18 am (UTC)