Single at last!

[liv]

Well, it's taken me six years, but finally, I am not in any relationship and I have no prospect of being in any relationship. You might have thought that an ambition for singlehood would be easy to achieve, since it's pretty much the default state and plenty of people end up that way even though they're making serious effort to avoid being single. Not me. I've had very strange luck, and it's led to several really wonderful relationships, so wonderful that they overcame my basic dislike of that sort of thing.

And yes, I am going to get severely laughed at if I do end up getting together with someone, even more than I got laughed at the last three times this kind of thing happened. But I'm sufficiently confident that isn't going to happen this time to run the risk of humiliation by gloating about being single! Just in case anyone is confused about this, this is not a cue for someone to ask me out in order to prove me wrong. Much less a hint along the lines of, oh look, I'm lonely and available, someone please show some interest!

*deep breath*

The less positive side of this is that the way I got to be single was by bringing to a close my two-year relationship with lethargic_man. I'm posting this here mainly because I don't want to have to repeat the information any more times than necessary. I'm not miserable about it; we planned this more or less from the beginning, and I am very convinced that it was the right thing to do. So please, if you can possibly bear to refrain from expressing sympathy, I'd really appreciate not having to go through the explanation of why I'm not in the emotional state typically associated with breakups.

That doesn't mean I'm absolutely over the moon about this. I really, really like and admire and, yes, love lethargic_man, and I really, really liked going out with him. I may post to expand on that later, but the main point I want to make is that, just because I'm not looking for sympathy, you shouldn't assume that I'm celebrating either.

Comments

[redbird]

My only thought--other than that I won't congratulate you if you'd rather not--is that state changes are difficult, whether it's from single to partnered or from partnered to single.

[liv]

I won't congratulate you if you'd rather not
Thanks, that's very sensitive and tactful of you. Generally congratulating someone on ending a relationship would be kind of odd, unless the relationship were acknowledged to be absolutely miserable. But I can see someone congratulating me (me congratulating myself, even?) on making a hard decision, maybe.

state changes are difficult
Thank you, that's exactly it. What I was trying to say all along was that going out with lethargic_man was absolutely wonderful in many ways, and being a single person who is friends with him is, I think, going to be very wonderful too, but the transition between them is kind of miserable. Thank you for articulating that for me.

[kassrachel.livejournal.com]

No overt sympathy, as requested, but I am thinking of (both of) you, and hope you weather the transition with a minimum of suffering.

[liv]

Thank you, that's really lovely of you, and very much appreciated. Hope and kind thoughts are definitely to be cherished, and the more so when they are offered without the sympathy that I'm feeling allergic to just now.

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

*eeeeee*

[liv]

I can think of several things you might be meeping at, but I'm not sure which to choose. Would you like to explain in words rather than leaving me to interpret?

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

Having split up with you, of course. (Well, maybe not of course, or you wouldn't have been asking.) I'm not badly meeping, just meeping. (Which is now giving me the mental image of a cross between Goldie the gargoyle and a sick roadrunner...)

Much less a hint along the lines of, oh look, I'm lonely and available, someone please show some interest!

Well, it is for me^* (or would have been if I'd posted anything on the subject in my blog), as that's kinda the whole reason I split up with you in the first place... :-S

[redbird]

I wouldn't exactly call what you're doing hinting.

Unfortunately, I doubt I know anyone who fits what you're looking for, as far as I understand it. (I don't know many single, observant Jewish women.)

[liv]

I don't know many single, observant Jewish women.
Well, FVO observant that could reasonably include me, I know quite a few who fit this description. I'm still working on my secret plot to set lethargic_man up with one of my friends.

Part of the issue here is that observant Jewish women, if they want to marry at all, are reasonably likely to be married already by the time they're lethargic_man's age. But that's a minor thing; I'm pretty optimistic that M is going to find someone suited to him in the not too distant future.

[redbird]

Hmmm. I suppose I could try setting you up with him--but even were I otherwise so inclined, I don't matchmake for people who say they want to be single.

The first person I thought of is, almost certainly, too old for him (as in, I think she's past her childbearing years).

[liv]

I suppose I could try setting you up with him
*snort* That's a very amusingly random suggestion. I think there are a few people who think he and I ought to be together, but they are mostly also people who think I'm not really as childfree as I think I am, which is kind of an unhelpful starting point.

I don't matchmake for people who say they want to be single.
That's very sensible of you. I can assure you that all the people I have in mind in my matchmaking plans are people who've expressly said they're looking to get married some time soon.

The first person I thought of is, almost certainly, too old for him
Well, it's sweet of you to be thinking about this at all, so thank you.

meep

[liv]

Having split up with you, of course.
Well, that was one possibility I thought of. I wasn't sure simply because the fact we had split up was week-old news to you by the time I posted this. You could have been meeping about the fact that I'd posted about it, or about some particular thing that I'd said.

the mental image of a cross between Goldie the gargoyle and a sick roadrunner...
That's really far too endearing, you know. *sigh*

* Shameless -- who, me?
I'm sure there are ways you can use LJ for dating purposes, but I doubt making this kind of comment is going to be one of them. Do you want me to take active steps to set you up with some of the people I have in mind?

Re: meep

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

Do you want me to take active steps to set you up with some of the people I have in mind?

<voice type="Elwood Blues">Just what religion do you think the Pope is anyway?</voice>

[doseybat.livejournal.com]

compilerbitch and i are always be happy to see both of you, both together and separately.

[compilerbitch.livejournal.com]

What doseybat said, in buckets. I really like you both, and whilst I've spent more time with livredor, that doesn't mean that liking lethargic_man is in any way conditional.

Good luck to you both.

[liv]

I really like you both
*extreme bouncing* Yay, thank you! I mean, you've given lots of indications of liking me and M, but I'm still really delighted by your saying so. I really like you too. (And also, I would be absolutely devastated if all my friends decided to drop lethargic_man just cos we're not going out any more. I don't think this is likely, cos my friends are far too sensible, but it's still good to be reassured.)

Good luck to you both.
Thank you. *appreciative grin*

[liv]

happy to see both of you, both together and separately
Thankyou! *hug* That's really the best thing you could say to me right now.

Actually, I probably should have included you in the list of people I intended to see more of but didn't manage, now I think of it. I'm obviously disappointed that I didn't get to see you again after the party, but in another way it was really lovely to see compilerbitch in the context of me just seeing her, not in the context of her happening to be attached to you. I hope that makes sense and isn't going to come across as offensive to you, because I certainly don't mean it that way.

But yeah, there's a definite transition (and this one is a positive one!) between seeing a friend's partner (or a partner's friend) and just seeing someone. I'm glad to have crossed over that with compilerbitch.

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

Yay for doseybat and compilerbitch! *hug*

Much better than blackherring threatening to grill me (http://www.livejournal.com/users/blackherring/48948.html). (Mmm, freshly grilled lethargic_man -- tasty!

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

*hug*, not in sympathy for imagined unpleasantness, but in support of being grown-up about such things in a non-conventional way.

[liv]

*hug*, not in sympathy for imagined unpleasantness
Hey, hugs are always good. I didn't express any objections to people hugging me. I'm much cheered by this comment, thank you (and that's without being particularly miserable in the first place, you understand).

in support of being grown-up about such things in a non-conventional way
Well, thank you. I'm not sure I'm being either particularly grown-up or particularly non-conventional, but neither seems entirely unreasonable either. And I like being supported in my decisions, especially when hugs are involved.

I like you, and you're very good to me, and this comment is yet another example of it.

[redbird]

I am frequently charmed by rysmiel's definitions of grown-up: they sometimes surprise me briefly, before I realize I agree with them.

The conventional way to approach your incompatible goals would, I think, have been either for one of you to initiate an immediate break-up as soon as you realized the incompatibility or for you to stretch things out as long as possible, probably until either you got that job offer on the other side of the world or he fell in love with someone else.

[liv]

I am frequently charmed by rysmiel's definitions of grown-up: they sometimes surprise me briefly, before I realize I agree with them.
You know, since I've started discussing this with you and rysmiel, I'm tending quite a lot towards this view myself.

The conventional way to approach your incompatible goals would, I think, have been either for one of you to initiate an immediate break-up as soon as you realized the incompatibility or for you to stretch things out as long as possible,
Yeah, that makes sense. I think our way was better than either of those though. If we'd split up straight away we'd have missed out on a lovely relationship. And I strongly suspect that letting the relationship go on indefinitely would have led to hurt.

I suppose the other convention we're breaking is that you're supposed to avoid all contact with, if not actively hate, someone you've ended a relationship with. That's also a convention that I think has very little going for it.

[redbird]

I think part of what I mean by grown-up in this context is the ability and willingness to make your own decisions about what makes sense--given who you are and what you want--rather than doing the conventional thing purely because it is the conventional thing. Probably most of us will sometimes want to do the conventional thing: conventions often exist for good reason.

I agree that avoiding one's exes is not an ethical imperative. Sometimes there may be good reason to do that, at least for a while, but there should be a reason.

Again, there's a difference between avoiding an ex because you know you can't be civil around them for a while, and doing so because your acquaintances assume you should. I have one ex who, well, for years I hoped I'd never see again--at this point, it's been long enough that I think I could handle it, but I certainly have no desire to see her, and will not seek her out. There's at least one other who I haven't seen in ages because we just drifted apart. I don't know how much we'd have to say to each other at this point--but if we do wind up in the same room sometime, I wouldn't mind finding out.

[liv]

think part of what I mean by grown-up in this context is the ability and willingness to make your own decisions about what makes sense
I can cope with that as that as definition. Old enough to think for yourself but also old enough to have got over the idea that the whole adult world exists to persecute you and that you must do whatever convention will disapprove of.

conventions often exist for good reason.
Indeed, as we've discussed in the past.

I agree that avoiding one's exes is not an ethical imperative.
Heh. I like phrasing it in such extreme terms!

Sometimes there may be good reason to do that
Oh, I don't deny that. I just feel it shouldn't be the default. Perhaps this attitude comes from working on the model of relationships that says you have a duty to stay together unless things become so utterly disastrously horrible that you probably would be refusing further contact once you got out. Whereas I work on the basis that a relationship is only worth doing if it's making the people involved happier than otherwise, which is a different baseline.

I have one ex who, well, for years I hoped I'd never see again
That's a pity; I'm sorry that you were in such a situation because I can only imagine that it must have been painful.

I've had one very difficult breakup, and at the time I suggested no contact for a few weeks because there was a lot of stuff we needed space to work through. Then a few weeks later came Christmas so I sent my ex a Christmas card. And he replied to that saying he was ok with email contact and starting to try to rebuild the friendship. Things were pretty satisfactory for a while, we were being quite tentative but we both cared about staying friends. We even saw eachother when we happened to be in the same town. Then completely out of the blue, he said he didn't want any more contact. I still don't know why, but it was about the most hurtful thing anyone's ever done to me. We're no longer formally Not Speaking now, but after two totally blank years there's too much ground to catch up to the point where we could be close. I deeply regret that.

There's at least one other who I haven't seen in ages because we just drifted apart.
That's definitely a likely outcome. Making friends with someone you've split up with can be quite a lot of effort, especially if you don't have any natural reason to see eachother casually (eg if you don't live nearby or move in the same circles.)

[lyssiae.livejournal.com]

I'll be the first to admit that the post you linked to sparked my nosy and impolite curiosity when I first read it; then I realised that I was being nosy and put it away, because you're simultaneously someone I admire and yet don't know that well.

Were I in your shoes I don't think I'd be able to keep myself together as well as you seem to be. My emotions are lethal things when released and when in transition from one state to another I'm prone to being slightly nutty.

So other than those random thoughts I've not much to say. Only I hope you have a good - er, holiday-ish season, and that you complete the T-word soon :)

[liv]

then I realised that I was being nosy and put it away
Oh, you're perfectly allowed to be nosy! Stuff I put in public posts is public, and I don't mind who reads it or who discusses it. (I have filters you're not in, things like a small group of people who are close friends of mine independent of LJ, and if I had something I wanted to discuss only with people who know me really well, that's where I'd put it.)

I'm completely fascinated by how other people deal with things like relationships; some would call me nosy because of that, I suppose. But I'm quite happy to improve my nosiness karma by being open about my own lovelife! Feel free to nose all you like, and do ask me to clarify if there's some background information you're missing, I shan't be at all offended.

Were I in your shoes I don't think I'd be able to keep myself together as well as you seem to be.
Ah, it's just my Vulcan blood showing through, I think ;-) I seem to be rather good at breakups, which is a bit of an odd talent, and one you almost hope not to get the benefit of, but anyway.

when in transition from one state to another I'm prone to being slightly nutty.
Well, in that case I hope your life is relatively free of painful transitions which might throw you off-balance.

So other than those random thoughts I've not much to say.
Random thoughts are good; that's part of what LJ is for, after all!

Only I hope you have a good - er, holiday-ish season,
Thank you. 'Happy birthday' works quite well (and saves having to figure out an appropriate seasonal greeting), given my birthday is during Christmas.

and that you complete the T-word soon :)
Thanks, I really appreciate your kind thoughts.

[khalidz0r.livejournal.com]

I've looked at the link you provided, and that together with what you did is very interesting and .. well, admirable. For me, it's probably the exact opposite. I am so afraid of breaking up with people that I end up having to break up with them for this very reason (i.e. self fullfilling prophecies), which sucks.

I probably wasn't mature enough (more than once!) to look at today more than I look at the future, because today is what actually shapes the future.

Opps, I am turning this to be about me; I'll stop!

[liv]

what you did is very interesting and .. well, admirable
Thank you, it's good of you to say so.

I am so afraid of breaking up with people that I end up having to break up with them for this very reason
Ugh, that's a very difficult one. I don't know quite how you get round that.

to look at today more than I look at the future
Mm, that's an interesting way of putting it. I can see your point, that this is an important thing to be able to do. It's almost the opposite of the hiraeth emotional state that rysmiel was mentioning, isn't it?

Opps, I am turning this to be about me; I'll stop!
Oh, I'm more than happy for you to talk about yourself here. After all, I pretty much know most of what there is to know about me already, so I'm much more interested to hear of others' experiences than engage in endless navel-gazing.

[khalidz0r.livejournal.com]

Ugh, that's a very difficult one. I don't know quite how you get round that.

It has happened to me three times, mostly (Which also happens to be the number of serious relationships I've had). I would start feeling I'm going to lose the person I'm in love with, and that they might leave me; and for this reason I become defensive, it causes problems with the other person. Things get worse, and I feel I'm going to lose them more, which in turn leads to more problems .. a vicious circle.

The first time I was left by the person after one of my fits; the second time both of us agreed that we can't continue that way; and in the third, I just couldn't stand waiting for the moment when we had to leave, and thus left myself. This makes normal friendships much better, becuase no such pressure is there, and thus no high risk of losing people who actually mean something to you.

Mm, that's an interesting way of putting it. I can see your point, that this is an important thing to be able to do. It's almost the opposite of the hiraeth emotional state that rysmiel was mentioning, isn't it?

Actually I do not want to lie to you; I don't understand what hiraeth means or what rysmiel said.

[liv]

I would start feeling I'm going to lose the person I'm in love with, and that they might leave me; and for this reason I become defensive, it causes problems with the other person.
Yes, I know what that's like. My first boyfriend was like that: he was so paranoid about splitting up with me that would keep telling me I was ugly and he didn't really like me that much, as a way of protecting himself. And even though I knew why he was saying such silly things, it didn't really help the relationship. I wish I knew what the answer was; I'm afraid it's something really unhelpful like you need to get more confidence.

This makes normal friendships much better, becuase no such pressure is there, and thus no high risk of losing people who actually mean something to you.
I really understand that. In a lot of ways I prefer friendship myself, and less pressure is a big part of it. Like, when you're friends with someone you can just not feel like seeing them for a few days or weeks, and it's not a big emotional Issue that has to be dealt with.

I don't understand what hiraeth means or what rysmiel said.
Sorry, that was my fault, cos I meant to include a link to the relevant comment and forgot. Is it any clearer now you can see what I was referring to?

[khalidz0r.livejournal.com]

I wish I knew what the answer was; I'm afraid it's something really unhelpful like you need to get more confidence.

True; I'm just dealing with it the easy way, avoiding any possibility of involving myself into a relationship now, especially a long-distance one. It's working, and I'm happier that way than I was when I was involved with someone; and I get to keep the people I like as friends, too. :)

And about the hiraeth state, yes, I could barely figure out the meaning after a few rereads of the vocabulary packed statement :D (I love those, they're just sometimes hard). It is indeed the opposite of what I feel.

Sorry for the delay in responding, I do that sometimes :/

[liv]

I'm just dealing with it the easy way, avoiding any possibility of involving myself into a relationship now
I think, in spite of the media impression to the contrary, there can be times in your life when you're better off on your own (generic you, not you personally). And you're incredibly busy with school and so on, so even if you were in a more receptive emotional state it might not hurt to be on your own and devote time to your studies and friends for a while.

I'm happier that way than I was when I was involved with someone
Great! That's obviously the most important thing.

And about the hiraeth state, yes, I could barely figure out the meaning after a few rereads of the vocabulary packed statement :D
rysmiel does go in for very complex sentence structure sometimes. It just seemed better for them to explain in their own words cos it's a new word to me as well.

Sorry for the delay in responding, I do that sometimes :/
Oh, no problem, I'm always getting back to old comments weeks later. One of the things I consider a flaw with the LJ interface is that threads die so quickly. I like having extended discussions and I don't always have time to reply to interesting comments straight away.

[jshado-1.livejournal.com]

Wow, I guess today is the day for non-terrible break-ups. I had a similar experience earlier with the_glom.

[liv]

I had a similar experience earlier with the_glom.
Well, I'm glad to hear that you were able to classify it as "non-terrible", anyway. I hope you continue to feel positive about the outcome.

[jshado-1.livejournal.com]

Thanks, and I do for you too :P

[hatam-soferet.livejournal.com]

I've never known you as a single person. Gosh. I hope it all goes as intended from hereon, a badger. Hugs.

[liv]

I've never known you as a single person.
I know, that's the really weird thing: the great majority of my friends and even casual acquaintances haven't. And I think of myself as being fundamentally single.

But actually, doseybat is practically the only person (other than schoolfriends and people who've known me from childhood) who remembers me from before I got into all the consecutive relationships. Indeed, I remember having a big rant at her about how relationships and love were a waste of time and I wasn't going to bother with them. There's MK and pseudomonas too, but I was doing quite a lot of falling for them when they first met me, so they didn't encounter me as properly single.

I hope it all goes as intended from hereon, a badger. Hugs.
Thanks. Thank you lots and lots. *hugs*

[rho]

No sympathy, and no congratulations, but a heap of good wishes for the both of you.

[liv]

a heap of good wishes for the both of you
Thank you, rho. You didn't have to bother commenting on this post, but you did, and I appreciate your good wishes.

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

It is possible that you're just not meant to be Single(tm). I must admit that when I think of you the thoughts have a distinct 'Person Naturally In Relationship' flavour, but perhaps that's just because you were so definitely with darcydodo when I knew you IRL.

[liv]

It is possible that you're just not meant to be Single(tm).
Gosh, I do hope you're wrong about that! Especially since single is very much what I intend for the next few years at least. And restricting it to the next few years is only because I can't reasonably predict any further in the future than that.

a distinct 'Person Naturally In Relationship' flavour, but perhaps that's just because you were so definitely with darcydodo when I knew you IRL
I know, it's particularly strange that someone like me, who basically doesn't approve of relationships at all, ended up in a relationship that was so intense, so consuming and defining. My relationship with lethargic_man was a lot more the sort of situation I'd expect to find myself in, if I'm going to be in a relationship at all. With the long distance thing as well as our own inclinations, we always had pretty independent lives. I don't think most people think of me as M's girlfriend (or M's ex now, I suppose), in the way that I was very much Darcy's girlfriend at Oxford.

[(Anonymous)]

just to say, in a way, well done for doing what you thought was right. hugs from me (not to be dished out generally as you know).
it was lovely to meet lethargic_man, although he did have some slightly disconcerting first impressions... and hopefully i will see him again sometime.
also, i kinda did this process too, a couple of years ago, though i found it a little traumatic, cos all the thinking and processing and descision-making was on my side, so after a good 10 months spent trying to work out the pros and cons etc (while going out long-distance and not seeing each other once), i eventually decided the things i knew i wanted (or knew i didnt want) won out over the great relationship. oh dear.
i totally admire the way you (both) have been so explicit and eloquent about this. clear-thinking, that's what i mean to say. well done for that too.
[blue_mai]

[blue-mai.livejournal.com]

hey there...

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

<waves>

What's the user icon?

[blue-mai.livejournal.com]

some steps by the via appia in rome. just happened to have it to hand.

[liv]

Welcome! I really thought you would be resistant to the LJ-virus. But I'm pleased you succumbed, particularly because it means I can lock posts without excluding you.

[liv]

well done for doing what you thought was right. hugs from me
Thank you. That means a lot, coming from you.

it was lovely to meet lethargic_man, although he did have some slightly disconcerting first impressions...
Oh, don't worry, he really is that strange :-p I'm pleased you did get to meet him, though!

and hopefully i will see him again sometime.
Well, you're both in London. Or I may have one of my sessions of inviting all kinds of random people I know to show up in the same place simultaneously.

i kinda did this process too, a couple of years ago
I wish I'd been more aware of what was going on in your life at that time.

But I suspect this kind of thing does happen more than one imagines. People like us, and probably people generally, end up meeting a lot of people who are not from similar backgrounds, and people have lots of options to follow unexpected life-paths. So odds are you're going to end up at some point dating someone whose view of their future is incompatible with yours. A lot of our myths of relationships are more or less based in a society where you pretty much married someone from the same village or neighbourhood, and where it was more or less a given that people got married and had kids and men had certain roles and women others. Undoubtedly, the world is a better place now, but I sometimes feel we're working with relationship paradigms that haven't entirely caught up with reality.

i found it a little traumatic, cos all the thinking and processing and descision-making was on my side
That's hard on you. At least lethargic_man and I talked this over together. It was very much a mutual decision and we weren't trying to second-guess what would make the other happy, but discussing everything all the time.

i eventually decided the things i knew i wanted (or knew i didnt want) won out over the great relationship. oh dear.
That sounds like it must have been a pretty miserable decision to make at the time; how do you feel about it now you've had a couple of years to get some perspective?

i totally admire the way you (both) have been so explicit and eloquent about this. clear-thinking, that's what i mean to say. well done for that too.
Thank you for that! Explicit, eloquent and clear-thinking are qualities I do strive for, so this a compliment I very much value.

[blue-mai.livejournal.com]

i still think about it, but now we're good long-distance friends, and this is good. it was just odd how something so very right on many levels i ended up deciding was wrong as a whole. not really a logical thing. hmm. i'll probably discuss this with you some other time, i'm getting self-conscious...
oh by the way when i said lethargic_man had some disconcerting first impressions, i meant his of me, not my impression of him. now it sounds like i'm an impersonator.