That "mixed" relationship thing

[liv]

So I've been going out with the Beau for about a year and a half now, and we're doing well. I've been more or less refusing questions about whether it's a problem that he's not Jewish, because, well, we're just us, we're not a paradigm of a mixed relationship. I have a slight suspicion sometimes that people are hoping for drama when they pose questions like that. In any case I've decided to introspect about it now.

[jack, do stop and think for a little and decide if you want to read this; it's mostly positive, but even so.]

I must admit I had some doubts about getting into a relationship with someone who isn't Jewish. Mostly because I find romantic relationships difficult anyway, and I was daunted by adding to the inherent difficulty of being emotionally entangled with a whole separate person by choosing someone from such a different background. My last relationship with a non-Jewish guy kind of imploded; he very nobly went around telling everybody that the issues were all on his side and I had no problems with it, but that doesn't mean that I feel good about hurting someone I cared about. But I don't generalize from that that no mixed relationships can ever work, it was that particular person and those particular circumstances which led to a bad outcome. When I was considering getting together with the Beau, what it came down to was that I was pretty sure I wanted to be with him as an individual, not as a hypothetical example of the sort of person I would ideally want to date.

On a personal level, things work incredibly well; Judaism doesn't get in the way any more than any hobby or social activity that happens not to be shared. jack is veggie, which pretty much removes any food problems. And he's supportive and interested in my Jewish stuff, to a point where the fact that he thinks that the underlying principles are complete nonsense is no more than one of those topics for relaxed couply teasing. The long distance thing may help with this; we're not trying to run a joint household where my religious practices might get in the way. And the Beau doesn't resent the time I spend doing community stuff, or having to fit round my commitments.

Considering mixed relationships in the abstract I worried that a partner might fail to understand something that's a very important part of who I am. But actually being able to understand me depends more on good communication than shared background, and good communication we have lots of! There is no problem of an atheist not being able to understand being religiously committed.

The only thing that seems a little weird sometimes is when I notice the way my Beau has complete confidence there's a place for him in the world. He doesn't have an inkling of what it's like to know that there are people out there who want to kill you, just for who your ancestors are, without any regard for anything you might say or do. I find it hard to think that's a bad thing, though; I want a world where everybody has that sort of basic expectation of the right to continue existing without violent threat. In our wanderings around Europe touristing, we've come across quite a few reminders of the Holocaust or other historical attacks on Jews; I get the impression the Beau finds this sort of thing shocking. And, well, it is shocking, it's just that I've known about the Holocaust for as long as I've been aware enough to know anything at all about how the world works. I don't think this difference in experience is a problem for the relationship, not at all; after all, my identity is very much not about being a victim of antisemitism. I would say the Holocaust has a relatively minor influence on my life (all my family close enough to know about were in England at the time, for example). It's just that it's part of my understanding of what it is to be human, and I've grown up with a community including many Survivors and people who were directly affected.

So in fact, the only real issues have been about how we are perceived by others, and those are mild. My parents are not delighted about the relationship, but they have too much wisdom to go around openly disapproving of their kids' choice of partners, much less putting pressure on us to date according to their wishes. (I think jack's family are a bit bemused at his choosing a religious Jewish girlfriend, but the weirdness is the religious part (they're all atheists!) not the Jewish part.) And most of my friends are generally sensible and realist about these things; they may have qualms, or be unwilling to date non-Jews themselves, but understand the situation I'm in and aren't judgemental. Sometimes it's just slightly awkward because when I introduce my sweetie, people naturally assume that he's Jewish.

Stockholm is in fact the ideal place for a mixed couple. The demographics here are such that 90% of married Jews have non-Jewish partners. Finding a Jewish spouse means, unless you're really lucky and happen to fall in love with someone who chooses to convert, you pretty much have to stick to marrying someone from the very small group of kids you grew up with, and that's often not an attractive or even an expected choice in our society. I know a few people who have decided they won't get involved with non-Jews; there a couple of guys in their 50s and 60s who are still half-heartedly hoping that one day their Jewish Princess will come. Actually this harsh reality is part of why we spend so much of our time hanging out with my religiously committed Jewish friends; most of the non-Jews I know around my age are married with small kids, so less interested in or available for the kind of social activities I participate in. Some of the 30-ish Jews are still waiting for a Jewish partner, so they haven't embarked on serious relationships or reproduction yet. But basically, nobody here bats an eyelid at discovering the Beau isn't Jewish.

Outside Stockholm, well, it's mostly just eyelids. It seems that several of my friends assume that the relationship is automatically a problem, and several of his assume that he's thinking of becoming Jewish. I don't think anyone assumes we could fix the supposed problem via me giving up being Jewish, I think mainly because you can't really give up being Jewish, even if I became totally atheist and never set foot in a synagogue again, I'd still be Jewish, and it would still be, in many people's eyes, a mixed relationship. I think much of the potential for internal problems would be the same if I were going out with someone just like jack, equally atheist, with equally little religious background, who just happened to be ancestrally Jewish. It might even be worse because there would be a danger that anything I did in terms of Jewish practice and involvement could easily be perceived as an implicit criticism of my hypothetical secular Jewish partner for not being religious enough. But the world would be congratulating me on my good luck in finding a Jewish partner, instead of being concerned for me.

The other thing is that I'm at a point in my life where I'm considering taking the Jewish leadership thing further, maybe even professionally. Running services and education was something I did in Dundee because I had to, but I've grown into the role and I now find that it brings me real joy and satisfaction. Lots of my friends here think I should train as a rabbi, and they really mean it, it's more than just a compliment because they enjoyed my latest sermon. It's something I'm putting serious consideration into, but having a non-Jewish partner, however supportive, is going to be a major, major obstacle. I don't think any denomination will train me as a rabbi unless I lie about, or end, the relationship. And even for more informal leadership positions, outside Scandinavia it's going to count against me.

When I start thinking about the future, whether or not I do decide to go down the Jewish leadership route, I must admit I get scared. We've got to the point of having vague, highly hypothetical conversations about whether this could be a long term thing. And I really don't see why not, except that at some point I'd have to make the leap and start saying: this is the person I've chosen, deal with that or not. Perhaps that's the same thing as deciding to get married (or make an equivalent long-term commitment) in the first place, you have to decide that you're going to push this relationship through no matter what opposition or challenges you face. But having the mixed thing hanging over us makes it harder to do the more natural thing of just spending more time together, perhaps making plans to overcome geography or even move in together, and just see how it goes. (This would be a million times more scary if long term also meant kids, but if I'd wanted to have children I'd have married one of my Jewish exes, not because they're Jewish but because they were willing to start a family with me and I love them, and if that was what I wanted I would have acted.)

At the same time, I'm acutely aware that all of this is really extremely mild. I'm not in any danger of getting beaten up, or cut off from my family and community because my partner isn't Jewish. From a practical, legal standpoint, getting married would be perfectly easy, and I don't even think I know anyone who would refuse to attend a wedding. In a lot of ways, the friction resulting from being in a mixed relationship is completely eclipsed by the social credit I gain from being in an opposite sex relationship. This Shapely Prose piece about being a queer woman with a male partner resonated really strongly with me, in ways that I'm not quite ready to articulate, even when I'm in this confessional frame of mind.

Comments

[lavendersparkle]

I know a few people who have decided they won't get involved with non-Jews; there a couple of guys in their 50s and 60s who are still half-heartedly hoping that one day their Jewish Princess will come. Actually this harsh reality is part of why we spend so much of our time hanging out with my religiously committed Jewish friends; most of the non-Jews I know around my age are married with small kids, so less interested in or available for the kind of social activities I participate in. Some of the 30-ish Jews are still waiting for a Jewish partner, so they haven't embarked on serious relationships or reproduction yet.

This is one of the things which frustrates me about the argument against interdating, that it is detrimental to long term Jewish demographics. From my experience and some talks I've been to at Limmud discussing the topic, there are two much bigger causes of Jewish demographic decline: people getting turned off Judaism and Jews not having babies. I get the impression that the emphasis on not marrying out could have a detrimental effect upon Jewish demographics because it causes Jews to hold out for a Jewish partner or delay committing to a non-Jewish partner. Jews never marrying or only marrying in their forties will result in fewer Jews in the next generation than Jews in their 20s marrying non-Jews and starting interfaith families.

[liv]

I am uncomfortable with the natalist type of argument. I think that's partly because I'm childfree, and I don't like the impression that all those years I've put into the Jewish community are worth nothing because I'm not breeding Jewish babies. Judaism has to be worth more than just being a way to make more Jews.

To be fair, I think that my goals and those of natalists coincide: we both want more people engaged in the Jewish community. I really do think that if Judaism feels worthwhile to most people, then there will be plenty of babies (and converts, for that matter). Because most people do want kids anyway, that's just biology, and if most people of reproductive age are already engaged in their communities, it will just follow naturally that we'll end up with more babies.

I do agree with you that stigmatizing intermarriage is a real problem for the Jewish community. I am not sure of the magnitude of the problem where it causes people to prefer not marrying at all over marrying "out", but that could well be an issue. In addition to that, though, people do fall in love with non-Jews, that's pretty unavoidable, and I think in the vast majority of cases, people are going to choose their partner over their community. (People who are looking for someone in theory are different, they may well choose not to seek out non-Jewish partners.) So I think it's vitally important that we don't force people to make that choice. If people in mixed relationships were still welcome within the community, there would be a lot fewer people lost.

[lavendersparkle]

I only referred to the natalist argument because it's the one that I hear most when non-Orthodox Jews try to rationalise their anti-interfaith relationship stances (if they get beyond "it's just not done!" and "What will the neighbours/Steins/Orthodox say?").

[shreena]

I've been wondering about how the mixed aspect to your relationship is working out for a while but felt it would be a bit intrusive to ask so I enjoyed indulging my curiosity by reading this.

I've also been wondering whether you were considering some kind of professional Jewish leadership as you seem to love doing it and, I'm sure, are excellent at it.

I sort of want to say lots of things but I'm worried that they would sound hostile. I can't really imagine not sharing something that was such a huge part of my life with a partner.

Obviously, I too am in a mixed relationship but Gujarati/Hindu stuff is much much less important to me than Jewish stuff is to you and so I'm not sure it really amounts to the same thing. But, although my lovely husband doesn't mind the time that I spend doing Gujarati/Hindu things, I kinda would prefer to be able to share these things with him. I would like not to have to translate/explain all the time. I still think that, on balance, we have more shared background than unshared background, though, and I think the chances of me finding someone otherwise compatible with me who shared my exact background were slim to none.

But when you say, And the Beau doesn't resent the time I spend doing community stuff, or having to fit round my commitments. , would you not prefer a partner who could be a part of your community stuff and commitments?

[liv]

Oh, very glad to hear your thoughts! I'm always a bit conflicted about relationship related navel-gazing, because I do find the mechanics of how relationships work really fascinating, but I can quite see how people might not be interested in me babbling about how I feel about my sweetie. Generally curiosity is fine, it's the nonne questions that bother me, when people aren't really asking, they're already assuming that my relationship must be fraught with problems.

I don't think you're being hostile, though perhaps that's due to your making a concerted effort not to be! I think it's fair that in theory, yes, I would prefer a partner who could be a part of [my] community stuff and commitments. But the point is that the theoretical criteria I might select if you bought relationships from shops and could tick off desired traits to constract an ideally compatible human being, aren't necessarily relevant to the real life situation where someone I felt very positive about asked me out.

You're right that it is a huge part of my life which is unshared, but I am finding that supportive and interested is good enough. I think you speak for me too when you say on balance, we have more shared background than unshared background. Also, I do like explaining; not needing to would be comfortable in one way, but being able to explain reassures me that my Beau is interested in me, and we have good conversations about my weird beliefs and practices.

It's definitely interesting to compare your situation with mine! I mean, you had more family and community pressure to "marry in" (do you guys have that phrase?) than I do, but at the same time you're less attached to that aspect of your heritage than I am. And I doubt that you have the problem of embarrassment over people assuming your husband is in fact from the same background as you!

[shreena]

*strokes imaginary beard* Yes, this is all fascinating.

I agree that, actually, explaining is quite interesting too, it's just interesting in a different way. It's often fun but sometimes I'm tired and I want to talk my weird hybrid English-Gujarati-Swahili dialect and I wish that my husband could understand it.

I mean, you had more family and community pressure to "marry in" (do you guys have that phrase?) than I do, but at the same time you're less attached to that aspect of your heritage than I am.

One of the things that I was going to say and then didn't is that, in some ways, when there is pressure, it's easier to go against it than when it's all very mild and civilised because that makes me at least feel bad in a way that outright pressure doesn't so much.

I doubt that you have the problem of embarrassment over people assuming your husband is in fact from the same background as you!

No. But I think we do, to some extent, get it the other way around - that, hearing me talk, seeing my lifestyle, people don't really get that Oxbridge/radio 4/etc is not the whole Shreena story.. I don't really mind, as such, but I think that is the assumption made.

[liv]

Oh, the language thing, yeah, I'm about three generations away from losing our language (Yiddish, which is a weird hybrid dialect to start with). So linguistically J & I have exactly the same background, monolingually English. I should have thought of that as an additional complication, though.

I don't actually feel bad about going against mild and civilised pressure. I'm very lucky that I'm pretty confident my parents will support me even if they disapprove, so although I'd never do anything deliberately to hurt them, I think it's my right to do things that are simply different from what they would have chosen.

not the whole Shreena story
That's a lovely way of expressing something that I think is quite important. I have been thinking a lot recently about the issue of being accepted if you play down the ways that you don't fit in to standard society, which is obviously better than not being accepted, but it can put you in a weird place. forthwritten has some brilliant stuff about this; did I ever link you to this essay? I wonder if something like this is involved in the reason why I tend to be so vocal about my Jewish activities and identity, because people can't tell from looking at me and I don't particularly want to be invisible (in spite of the obvious advantages).

[kaberett]

Having come back several days later to check for comments - because I guessed they'd be interesting - well, they are, and I'm glad I did, and I tend to stay quiet because, well, not my experience, but. I do enjoy reading and find things informative and helpful. So thank you. :)

[liv]

Oh, I'm really glad to hear it was interesting to you! Thanks so much for commenting that you were reading the discussion. I know you've also had problems with family disapproving of your relationships, though for different reasons. And if I ever manage to make words happen for talking about queer identities, I'll really welcome your input.

[kaberett]

It was also of interest from the point of view of being a close observer of a mixed relationship that definitely isn't working, of course...

[Violently atheist Zionist on the one hand; Catholic who's been boycotting Israeli produce for decades on the other...]

Thank you for letting me read. Really. :) And I would be very interested in words-about-queer-identities!

[kass]

There's much here that resonates for me. I know couples where both share Jewish ancestry and tension breaks out like mad when one of them becomes more observant. The couples I know who are interfaith who have been navigating the interfaith thing for a long time have inevitably developed excellent communication skills :-) and therefore are often able to navigate the religious/notreligious dynamic with grace, as you describe.

[liv]

Also I've seen real problems where people make a specific effort to find someone who is closely religiously compatible, and later can't deal with a new stage in their partner's religious development. Becoming less observant can be as much a problem as more observant, or just changing how one wants to interact with the community. But yes, I have great optimism invested in developing communication skills.

[monanotlisa]

Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

[redbird]

Thanks for this, and for the link to the post by the queer woman, including the comments on how being queer intersects with fat acceptance and body image.

[liv]

I love Shapely Prose, and that essay stands out above a very good general standard. I should probably try to get some words together to talk about that stuff myself, but for now a link is all I can manage.

[nanaya]

Hey, sorry I didn't see this the first time round, has been a bit of a nightmare week.

This is excellent - bits are highly informative, quite a few bits I could have written myself;

Considering mixed relationships in the abstract I worried that a partner might fail to understand something that's a very important part of who I am. But actually being able to understand me depends more on good communication than shared background, and good communication we have lots of! There is no problem of an atheist not being able to understand being religiously committed.

I definitely understand that. alextiefling & I are in a mixed relationship of a similar kind - I'm a very lazy pagan (and was an atheist) and he's a fairly committed Christian who spent many years intending to go to seminary and become a priest before being quite thoroughly put off by his supposed mentors. Theoretically, we should be poles apart spiritually, but our outlooks, and our common interests, are sufficient that we actually mesh very well (it helps that we both love talking about religion, spirituality and history and do so a great deal).

I was very touched and extremely pleased when A said to me recently, in response to an idle question about whether he minded me teasing/poking him about his religious practices and beliefs, that in fact he feels that being with me has deepened and strengthened his faith and his commitment to being a Christian, because of the way we interact. I thought that was lovely, and made me feel very good indeed. Do you feel having a supportive relationship assists you with your own religious path, or are the two things quite distinct?

(As an aside, I don't know if you'd find it interesting, but A. has a "religious stuff" filter which he very occasionally writes on, and has been interested for a while in starting a non-denominational religious discussion group with People Like Us in mind ie something which could be both informal and also academic as the topic demanded, but was fundamentally a tolerant, safe space where people from all sorts of different traditions could share ideas and insights. I think it's a good idea and that he should definitely do it - feel free to poke him further if you think it sounds useful!)

I really DO get the queer person with opposite-sex & opposite-gender partner thing a lot, and so does he - it's interesting.

[liv]

Ooh, thanks for this comment, it's really great to hear your thoughts on this! Don't worry about not seeing it before, I hardly expect you to hang on my every word, and I'm a believer in keeping conversations alive for longer than the day or so before they float off reading pages.

Really interesting about your inter-faith relationship, and some perspective from the less religious half of a couple! I do sometimes find that spending a lot of time with convinced atheists or people on a very different religious path from mine strengthens my commitment to Judaism, yeah, because they present arguments against and I remember why I don't accept those arguments. But I haven't had much of that with jack, because basically he assumes (correctly) that I've heard all the standard atheist gotcha arguments before so doesn't bother reiterating them. Explaining stuff to him does help a bit, but it's kind of one-sided.

Another thing I want to do more when I get back to Britain is get involved in interfaith dialogue again, because that really does help strengthen my religious commitments. So in theory I'd be interested in alextiefling's non-denominational religious discussion group. I'm a little cautious, though, cos I've done my stints being the token non-Christian to make a bunch of liberal Christians feel good about themselves, and I am not quite at that place in my life right now. If the group happens, can I lurk for a bit and see if it feels comfortable? I think having you involved and some others who are something other than Christian or ex-Christian would make it a lot more plausible for me.

[nanaya]

I'm a believer in keeping conversations alive for longer than the day or so before they float off reading pages

This is a very sensible policy and I wholly approve. Not just because I'm slow at responding to comments or anything.

As to not hearing the standard arguments - yeah, it's a relief for me, cos I *have* heard them before (I used to espouse them, and I get them from my mum anyway), so in that sense having a religious partner is a similarity because there is an acceptance of someone else's faith, but one of the good things about having different religions is that we don't assume we know it all already. A. recently remarked that it's quite possible he and I may be in more accord about how we both approach our faiths than we might be if he had a Christian primary partner (or I a pagan one - very likely there! Poor critical thinking from pagans tends to provoke me somewhat), which he thinks is very much about the way our personalities work together. I don't know if it's transferrable, but perhaps you and Jack work that way too? Or, something like that.

I'm certainly happy to discuss this topic further at some convenient point if that should take your fancy - maybe over a pint?

in theory I'd be interested in alextiefling's non-denominational religious discussion group. I'm a little cautious, though, cos I've done my stints being the token non-Christian to make a bunch of liberal Christians feel good about themselves, and I am not quite at that place in my life right now. If the group happens, can I lurk for a bit and see if it feels comfortable?

Heh, judging by the people we know, I suspect liberal Christians might be in the minority already! Or at least, there'd be plenty of pagans to be the token non-Christians. So I think that's definitely a yes, and also hopefully an "I don't think that's the idea of the group; it'd certainly be good to make sure that doesn't happen". At present, it's only a partially formed idea of something he'd like to do, but I know he wants to make it inclusive. I suggest you approach him directly on the subject! I am certainly happy to be involved with the group, cos I love discussing religion, and I think there's a lot that such an environment could provide for people who may not mesh with more "traditional" religious groups of similar kinds, but I think it'd come down to how we all made it run, and what we wanted to see happen. I'm glad you think it's a potentially interesting project, though, that's a good sign.

That said, I know what you mean - I myself have been wanting to get involved with interfaith work for, ooh, about 12 years now (The Pagan Federation was v big on getting more pagans onto interfaith councils/groups back in the '90s, and still are somewhat), but have simply not found the opportunity to get on with it. Am pondering spiritual stuff at the moment because I think I'm getting a bit less active in that regard (although I don't think my beliefs have changed - I need to think this one out in more depth), but I still regard it as A Good Thing and think it's an ace thing to do, so I say you should go for it!

Would be very interested to hear about how yeshiva goes for you this summer - we were both talking about you last night re: your religious studies, hoping they would be fun & productive, etc, at the end of a conversation about all the fascinating cultural tidbits we'd discovered from Aaron Lansky's "Outwitting History" (A is reading it right now and loving it, and telling me all about it - I am sharing back some of the books I'm currently reading, esp the Natalie Barney & Romaine Brooks one, "Wild Girls"). So, a nice coincidence to see this comment from you tonight :-)

[nanaya]

Ooh, and tangents prompted by comments above;

1) Your remark about Yiddish is extra-interesting in light of the stuff in the Lansky book which is in my mind right now, would *love* to talk to you more about this some time if that doesn't come across as excessive prying/cultural tourism? (I was genuinely disturbed by the bits in the book about Hebrew scholars purposely destroying Yiddish books; my reverence for texts of all kinds may be excessive).

I wonder if something like this is involved in the reason why I tend to be so vocal about my Jewish activities and identity, because people can't tell from looking at me and I don't particularly want to be invisible (in spite of the obvious advantages).

I definitely wonder this about pagan-type things too. I'm insufficiently inclined to wander round in a long velvet cloak, tie-dyed dress and pentacle the size of a soup plate! ;-)

2) Shapely Prose article: some good stuff. A lot of similar ideas to Jennifer Baumgarder's book about bi women, "Look Both Ways", which was both fascinating and infuriating, and which I'd recommend reading if you haven't already, just for the parts where she assesses how loving women benefits women in later relationships with male partners (frustrating combination of insightful and appropriative, IMHO). Worth a peek, anyway - I meant to review it after picking up a copy in the US last year, but, as usual, didn't get round to it.

[(Anonymous)]

I am curious_reader but can't log in.
I guess if someone non-Jewish is somehow interested in respects your Jewish life style it can work. I just can't find anywhere anyone suitable. I am at an age where all men I would have been interested in are either married or are definitely in a commited relationship. I am also the most interesting person in the world. I would however not be happy and able to have a relationship over a far distance. That is not very satifying. I am not even very good in keeping in email contact with people I met and would have liked to be friends with. You don't sound like being happy about the distance either including the distance from your friends, too.
I don't think anyone has to produce babies. There are enough people also Jews who decided not have children and are happy without them. Children means lots of commitments and you are limited what you can do with your own time. Apart from that if someone has not much money (in London you have to be a millionar indeed) you can't afford children on top of a decent accomodation and other living costs. Some people have to struggle with their own health problems and would be unable to cope with children at home. They may get help but it won't be satifactory for the parents nor the children.
Coming back to Jewish couples. There are more secular Jews out there than religous ones. They may not teach their children about Judaism. What the use of producing more Jews then? I don't think that was the idea of the Rabbis and scholars.

[liv]

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Meeting people is really hard, whether or not you restrict your options by refusing to date non-Jews. You have my sympathy, and I hope you will find someone soon. I think most people feel as you do about long distance relationships; I'm a bit unusual because I like my independence and find long distance more convenient. But you're right that I do miss my friends, that's a big part of the reason I'm trying to move back to England.

Thanks for your supportive comments about the not having babies thing. I do agree that there's no particular advantage to marrying someone who is secular and just happens to be halachically Jewish.

[redaloud.livejournal.com]

Shit, but life is complicated isn't it.

Pursuing the Jewish leadership route does sound like something that might be very good for you indeed. I seem to remember you discussing this with me quite some time ago, and it seems to be something that you've become even more interested in as time has progressed. It's clearly something that you could be passionate about and that you would be good at.

However...

And sorry for being a bit blunt, but is this something you are genuinely interested in; or is it one of those bits of wishful thinking that people sometimes produce for themselves, when they're not quite certain that they're doing the things with their lives that they thought they would be doing. There's a difference between wanting something with all your heart then taking realistic steps to achieve that goal, and wistfully thinking that doing a particular thing would be rather nice (I tend to be heavily in the later category, there's nothing wrong with it -- come on in, the water is always the perfect temperature).

At this moment you strike me as being very undecided about where your life is going. In particular, you're very uncertain about whether or not you're going to stay in academia. If you don't continue doing research you have to have something else to do with your life, and deciding what you're going to do with the rest of your life is a kinda scarey decision.

Your work in the Jewish community has been a main thrust of your life for a long time, but as I understand it, a large part of that was practical necessity. First you were in a town where there was no Jewish community, so being a driving force within your religious community was important. Then you were in a new country where you knew no one and didn't speak the language, and you used your work within your community to make friends and get to know people -- obviously it became a lot more than that later on. Neither of these things are bad things. Community is important, being part of your community is important and helping a community run smoothly is downright commendable. However, using your community as the easy solution to unhappiness isn't cool at all. Do you really really want to be a rabbi? Or are you clutching at straws, because you can't think of anything else you want to do and drifting into a role within your religious community has always worked out for you before?

I know I've been downright brutal, but I think you need to look at this situation a little, because you're factoring Jack into the equation as well. And if you decide not to go to rabbinical college and make Jack a large part of that decision, that's a horrible moral debt to place on his shoulders. It's an even nastier debt, if it is actually just a bit of wistful thinking.

Finally, Stockholm seems really accepting of just about everything -- I'm still well impressed by the way that Pride parade was received, for example. But you seem to be thinking that when you come back to England, you're coming back to the stone age of liberal thinking. How badly are mixed marriages seen in England? Really? Why can't you train as a rabbi and still openly be in a relationship with Jack. Can you fight that battle and win it? Is there any form of precedent? What about training in Sweden and then moving back over to the UK? It's worth fighting for who you are, the person you could become, and who you want to be with. And the last time I looked, people who lead communities and do them the most good, are also people who are prepared to challenge communities and make them look at things in a new way.

[liv]

Thank you so much for this, redaloud. It's exactly what I needed to hear, and you express it very well. You're very right that there's a strong element of considering the rabbinate cos I need to do something, and another five years of being a student would avoid scary decisions, and there is a bit of wistfulness in it, yes. I think it's not only that, I think there are some positive reasons as well why I could serious contemplate training as a rabbi. But I'm not committing myself yet because I do have doubts about exactly the problem you describe.

The situation in England is, well, most Reform and Progressive congregations aren't going to stop you participating if your partner isn't Jewish, and some are actively welcoming. But any kind of leadership position, whether lay or rabbinical, is going to be more or less closed, particularly anything formal. If I decide against rabbinical training because of jack, it will be more about the principle that I don't want to pursue a career where random strangers get a say in who I date.

Taking up the fight is a possibility, and I do take your point that that might be the brave thing to do. The thing is that to do that I would have be very certain about both the goal of becoming a rabbi, and wanting to be in this relationship forever. And neither of those things seems a foregone conclusion yet. (It's not possible to train as a rabbi in Sweden; if anything I'd train in the UK and then move back to Sweden to practice. In five years' time I think the Progressive group may be mature enough to need and be able to employ a rabbi.)

[redaloud.livejournal.com]

Great, so you were thinking along those lines anyway -- I've spent most of the day worrying that my 4am ranting was way too harsh (I tend to write those sort of things, reconsider, and then never say anything at all). If I was being a bit didactic, I'm really sorry.

On a separate note, how do you do the green linky things for journal names? I just don't understand what's going on with Dreamwidth at all.

As for the rest, there's nothing I can say. You seem to have looked at practicalities from just about every angle,'cos you're clever like that, and there's nothing much you can do about the general malaise. Things might be better when you get back to England -- I assume that means that you'll be spending more time with the Beau, which might help in some ways.

Isn't it weird the way the whole growing up thing takes an entire lifetime? When I was a kid I thought there would be some magical age (probably twenty) where all the big decisions would have been made, and I would always know what to do in any situation, and everything would just click into place. And now I'm nearly thirty and most of my friends are around the same age, and we are all categorically grown ups and all the decisions are huge and entirely our own responsibility. As far everything just clicking into place? I giggle manically at the thought. Pretty much everyone I know seems to be at some kind of major crossroads in their lives at the moment.Life is (she says with no political correctness at all) a complete bitch at times. When are you leaving Stockholm?