Bi visibility day is tomorrow

[liv]

So I'm going to angst about it. I didn't go to Bicon this year. I sort of planned to, and it would've been a good year to do it, given that I had both time and money, and I was in the right country, but then I chickened out.

Partly it's that I feel not pretty enough for Bicon. No, not exactly not pretty, that's not the right word. I'm intimidated by all the reports of amazing costumes; I would have no idea where to begin with that sort of thing, and besides I don't feel comfortable dressing up sexy and being on display navigating environments where a lot of people are aiming to get laid. But I know there's stuff going on at Bicon which isn't connected to that kind of scene, and I have lots of friends and connections who are regulars.

No, the main thing that made me hesitate (and eventually decide that I would spend that nominal pot of money on Eastercon and the Open Talmud Project instead) was that I'm really conflicted about the whole bi thing. I simultaneously want to identify as Queer and be part of the scene and get involved in at least some low-key activism and community stuff, and I want the gender of the people I happen to be attracted to not to matter. I've never quite settled on whether I want to define myself as bi. I mean, if someone happens to ask, then I'm in no way closeted, but I vacillate about whether that's who I fundamentally am, or whether it's just an incidental fact about me.

Partly it's that, well, I'm in an increasingly serious-looking relationship with a man. Now, on one level that doesn't make any difference, my relationship status right now doesn't say anything about my intrinsic sexuality. I know that part of the reason the bi scene even exists at all is to provide an alternative to some of the queerness policing that can go on in the mainstream gay community. Politically, yes, I very much agree with the idea that people with fairly conventional gender presentation in a relationship with someone of the opposite standard gender are still Queer if that's who they are. At the same time, though, I can hardly deny that I have a ton of passing privilege. Nobody reads me as Queer unless I choose to specifically tell them about it, and I can't help being aware that that fact makes my life a great deal easier. And I don't at all want to appropriate an experience I don't really share. Still, I've written before about the fact that passing and invisibilty aren't always without cost.

I've found myself conflicted about Pride and other Queer events in a similar way; I want to participate and be part of the community, and support a cause I believe in. But then I remember very well how incredibly treasured and rare Queer space was when I was in a same-sex relationship. It's very hard to explain; it's not that I think anyone would have a problem with me being present, (and if they did they'd be biphobic bigots anyway). It's just that, well, if 99% of your life is lived in situations where holding hands with your partner is a political decision and risks attracting hostility, and you get this rare opportunity to experience a context where same-sex affection is entirely normal, and some opposite sex couple, who can hold hands and kiss and canoodle in public and mention their relationship all the time, come along and want to join in the fun, there's something a bit off. This is even more true for people who don't fit gender norms, because for them, the problem is not having to hide their relationship, but that their actual existence is an issue for a proportion of people they encounter. I have a perfect right to take part in Queer events, that is clear, but the question is whether it's morally good for me to exercise that right.

Part of it is, I think, that I'm nervous about confirming biphobic stereotypes. It's easy to dismiss me as BUG, because my major serious relationship with a woman took place while I was at university. And basically, I've dated and been involved with men since then. This isn't at all from conscious choice, but because several of those relationships have lasted long enough that I wasn't available to date women anyway, and because I seem to be more attractive to men than women in general (not more attracted, just that very few women fancy me, and I think that's partly to do with the fact that I read as straight, but I'm not particularly gorgeous or femme either), and of course the perennial problem that there are a lot more straight men than Queer women in the world. Anyway I shouldn't have to justify this, but the point is it's easy for a homophobic straight person to think that my bisexuality was just a phase, or for a biphobic gay person to think that I was just pretending to be bi to look cool while in a relatively safe environment! Similarly, if I have a slight exhibitionist streak, so enjoy the idea of attractive people watching me with a partner, and I sometimes entertain threesome fantasies, I feel I have to defend myself from the potential charge that I'm just putting on a show for men.

And this has all been thrown into relief because, for the first time in 8 years, I have met some women with whom there is a degree of mutual attraction and at least some possibility of acting on it. These things may of course come to nothing, but considering potential connections with specific people is very different from considering the question in the abstract. If do end up getting involved with these people, or indeed anyone else, I'll suddenly be much more visibly Queer, and be back in the situation where I am constantly deciding just how open I can afford to be about my relationship status. Of course, there's another bi stereotype against me here: a lot of bi activism is about convincing the world at large that it's perfectly possible to be bi and monogamous, so if I go around dating several people at once, I'm in trouble from all sides. From conservative people who may well disapprove of any kind of Queer relationship, from people who are able to accept same-sex relationships as long as they're exactly otherwise indistinguishable from heterosexual, pair-bonded, monogamous, respectable, marriage-like relationships but may have a problem with poly, from people who need to convince the world that bisexuality doesn't equal infidelity (and probably from people who are way, way more Queer than me who don't want me on their bandwagon).

Also, well, it's not only a question of, do I want to stick my neck out and be noticeably Queer. It's a question of whether I want to form deep connections with some very wonderful people. I don't want to close off those possibilities because some people don't approve of same-sex relationships, and some people don't approve of multiple relationships existing simultaneously!

I've been party to some discussions recently, where people who really can't pass express real hurt at people like me who kind of expect to have our cake and eat it. I mean, I can definitely see it that way, I get the social approbation of being cis, and being in a visible, possibly long-term relationship with a man (this gets even worse if we end up making a formal commitment), but I also want to enjoy the creativity of the Queer subculture, and the freedom to have several partners. I sort of don't care about people disapproving of me because they have rigid, prescriptive ideas about how people should do relationships; I do care about potentially hurting other Queer people and accidentally making their life harder.

I should probably stop trying to overthink this, shouldn't I?

Comments

[khalinche]

*placemarker for long, thoughtful, reassuring comment which affirms your right to identify as queer while acknowledging your worries*

*smooch*

[redbird]

I don't think you're overthinking things.

It's tricky because you're on the edge of several things, and there's uncertainty there: I'm on edges because I have a similar (only maybe moreso) other-sex partnership, but I also have an established, committed partnership with someone of my own gender. It's not just in potentia: wanting acceptance for the specific relationship with Adrian is different from being out without a present-tense relationship to be out about. (Identity and potential do matter, but there's also the safety of being able to pass, or passing without even trying or thinking about it, because of how people read gender identity. In some ways it might be easier if I wasn't so fond of this long hair.)

[monanotlisa]

I'm really glad you posted this, so my answer is - for you, stopping to overthink is probably a more productive avenue; for me, it's making me feel less alone. :)

[dsgood]

Suggestion: Before next year, ask people you know who attend Bicon how they think someone in your situation is likely to be regarded.

Keep in mind: 1) Someone who disapproves of you being in a serious relationship with a Person of The Wrong Gender perhaps shouldn't be in an event for Bi people; 2) A certain percentage of any group is going to disapprove of you for one reason or another.

[nanaya]

I used to worry about this stuff in the past, and now I don't. I have more to say on this when I have more brane, but suffice it to say that there are LOADS of opposite-sex cis couples at BiCon.

[ptc24]

Can I just echo:

I think I was supposed to have sorted this out by the time I was 20

and

I do care about potentially hurting other Queer people and accidentally making their life harder

except that for me, I end up feeling all angry inside towards them, and yet I can't express that anger, because it would be both morally wrong and irrational, and so I simmer inside, and I worry when I talk about the things going on in my life (e.g. my attempts to get to grips with trans terminology) that there's all this bitterness leaking out.

Should do some work rather than writing a comment very slowly...

[green_knight]

I can see two potential problems to navigate, and I don't think they're related: one is the 'how bi are you' question that deals with self-identification, and being open about it, and being bi but in long-term relationship with a member of the opposite sex and others denying your bi-ness etc.

And the other is the question of being poly. For every bi-in-relation-with-one-sex who also wants to form attachments to member of the other sex there is at least one gay or bi person who is stereotyped as non-monogamous, so I see that as a problem area of its own.

(I suppose the whole gender identification thing is a third axis.)

Until people can find acceptance as individuals, some of these will be minefields, however you navigate it for yourself.

[blue_mai]

glad you wrote this :)

in short - the whole thing is too minefield-y and makes my head hurt and, coward that i am, it just means i opt out. there's perhaps a little more to it than that.

also, i simply don't identify as bi, in my head, except in the formal way of being asked to identify to conventional categories for statistical purposes or something. otherwise, the point for me is that gender isn't a constraining thing with sexual attractiveness - it's a non-thing rather than a thing.

i think i've always been one to avoid organised stuff - i was averse to student LGBT, and i slightly cringe at the thought of BiCon. i'm not entirely clear why that is....

also, i'm not actively poly, and in a hetero-mono relationship, i'm not out to my family, i'm happy to be out at work or to friends, but don't advertise. therefore, it's just a bit academic for all real purposes. it just feels entirely inappropriate for me to 'participate'.

[jack]

Sympathy. FWIW, I don't think it matters that you didn't go: you had a fun time elsewhere and can always go another year if you still want to. And you presumably wanted to think it through yourself than to solicit reassurances. But FWIW, I want to try to persuade you that it would be fine to go, while in no way invalidating your introspection about self-identity.

Partly it's that I feel not pretty enough for Bicon.

I know this isn't the main point, and you say you're already comfortable with it, but perhaps it's worth persuading your emotional mind what your rational mind already knows. I don't know bicon, but FWIW, I would say that (a) surely there are many friends who go to bicon and dress normally and didn't want to dress up in sexualised glamorous clothes, perhaps people more approaching it from a political viewpoint (b) in something like the goth dress and accessories, you do look really, really sexy and glamorous, and you could choose to dress like that or not, although perhaps a testimonial from someone else who doesn't automatically think you're wonderful would be more persuasive :) (c) people who wear fancy costumes started somewhere, perhaps even with one outfit -- I think you thought I looked incredibly regal in my cloak, but I typically feel ridiculous masqeurading as a sartorial person :)

I simultaneously want to identify as Queer and be part of the scene and get involved in at least some low-key activism and community stuff, and I want the gender of the people I happen to be attracted to not to matter.

I know what you mean, and both are very good. But, conveniently, you are at liberty to choose either -- or both -- depending how you feel. Recognising that a label doesn't have to be determining to you is incredibly important. Thinking about it is important, but both seem totally valid: you don't want being queer to be the most important part of who you are, and yet, I think it undeniably applies to you, and you undeniably identify with it at least somewhat. Which I would have thought would be what invites you into queer events.

It's just that, well, if 99% of your life is lived in situations where holding hands with your partner is a political decision and risks attracting hostility, and you get this rare opportunity to experience a context where same-sex affection is entirely normal, and some opposite sex couple, who can hold hands and kiss and canoodle in public and mention their relationship all the time, come along and want to join in the fun, there's something a bit off.

I can certainly imagine that if you went with your boyfriend and spent the whole weekend making out together, and simultaneously complaining that your life is so difficult because of your sexuality then it might be insensitive. But presumably this is not plan A? Surely the whole point of bicon is that some people will be in same-sex relationships and some people in opposite-sex relationships and some people will be monogamous and some people will be polyamorous. Or there wouldn't be much need for it.

Part of it is, I think, that I'm nervous about confirming biphobic stereotypes.

And again, that's very understandable. (And think of poor me conforming to white male heteronormative stereotypes! :)) And it's certainly good to be aware of.

But (a) it's supposed to be inclusive, so there presumably will be some people who are NOT very serious about being bi (b) people who don't know you well can't see all this at a glance and people who know you know that (even though you are not obliged to justify it) you do in fact see women as targets for serious relationships, not just smooches (c) people like you are presumably an important part of bi identity, so shouldn't they be represented?

This is a reassurance I need to hear myself, but you can't simultaneously avoid conforming to every stereotype in existence. It's logically impossible and not morally necessary.

where I am constantly deciding just how open I can afford to be about my relationship status.

Yeah. I realise now that (for the first time in my life) I may have to think about whether I come out about sexuality things, rather than as members of winnie-the-pooh and country dancing societies, although it's almost certain to still be entirely theoretical and not something that's ever difficult for me.

I'm tentatively inclined to the view that non-serious relationships, either one offs, or "every two month" things, probably don't need to be mentioned at work. any more than they would if I were single. They're a cross between "good friends the person I'm talking to will never meet" and "sexual details", both of which don't really need to be dwelled on.

If there were ever another equally primary relationship, that would be something to mention, probably only if it comes up in conversation. Although it does make me think that I would be betraying the lifestyle by denying it, but I also don't want to be someone who shoves intricate personal details in everyone's face.

The tricky question is if you're flirting with potential non-primary relationship people in front of non-queer people, how do you casually mention that it's normal for you without getting into a big debate?

When I told poppy about michelle, I realised that to non-queer people, it was hard to quickly make the mental leap that being nuzzled by other people wasn't a doomed disaster of a grudging compromise we kept mostly behind each other's backs, but a glorious exuberance :)

people who really can't pass express real hurt at people like me who kind of expect to have our cake and eat it.

I understand why their so hurt, but, even though you have some good fortune they lack, it's not your fault unless you rub their nose in it. Are there any specific suggestions about things you should do? I think it would be unreasonable to suggest that unless you give up a traditionally acceptable relationship, you should not do queer things -- it's not as if there's only so much queerness to go round and you'll use it up so people who need it can't have it. Would people want you to be more visible? Have something on your desk at work that says "outwardly normal people are bi"? That's difficult, but possible, depending what trade-offs you want to make. I'm probably being unfair to how they felt because I didn't see what they said. But there's no good feeling guilty because you happened to have your life be more lucky than some people (although less lucky than many other people, however lovely it turned out!), the question should be, is there anything you ought to DO? Or not?

You maybe need to hear comments from people in that position, rather than from other people.

I should probably stop trying to overthink this, shouldn't I?

Well (a) I think thinking about things thoroughly and talking about them is good but (b) while there are people to whom queer activism is more central to their identity, I would have pointed to your life as an example of a bi person's life which was really good.

[naath]

I have only been to bicon once (spare time, I no can haz it) but...
1)you *hear* about the pretty pretty people, because they are pretty and people take pictures yes? Lots of people go in jeans and Tshirts, lots of people look *entirely unremarkable*. It's OK to dress boring if you like, also it's OK to dress not-boring if you like.

2)It's *bi*con, I think your point about being straight-passing and thus unwelcome at some queer events/spaces is a valid one, but I think bicon is not one of those spaces being as it is explicitly for bisexual people, many of whom are in heterosexual relationships (many of whom are not, also of course).

[emperor]

Also, Bicon does (did? I've not been in years) bill itself as for "bisexuals, their friends, allies, and supporters"

[dpfesh]

Other folks have given huge long awesome responses.. I'll just chirp in with:
I identify as Bi / Queer out in the world. Tho folks know i have a Husband (he's also bi/queer). I also have a Girlfriend.

I figure "my job" (if i have one, past just Being Awesome & Happy) is to challenge people's thoughts. Yeah ok, i appear to be "Straight" as i have a husband who's awesome and we're happy, etc.. But it's so fun to watch 'normal folks' faces go Wait, WTF?? when i mention my girlfriend, or lij's girlfriends (he hasn't found the right boy yet!) and that to *me* and my crowd that is totally normal.

~grin~ brings me joy to confuse people and then they ask questions. Asking questions is a good way to learn some damn thang.

..And i never know if i quite ident as *bi* - as i recognize there are more that 2 genders, and it's not the persons' bits i'm attracted to but the Person themselves.. but i don't want Bi's to remain 'invisible'.. so i interchange Bi with Queer all the time. Gah, such difficulties! :)

[liv]

Thank you. I really appreciate the thought, and I understand about the lack of time / brain to expound. jack said that this so encapsulates the perfect response that I needed, that there was almost nothing left to say!

[liv]

Yeah, edges and uncertainty make it more weird. And you've put what I was trying to say really succinctly: yes, all that about the difference between identity and actual relationship, and passing and gender identity and stuff.

I didn't officially come out as bi until I actually had a girlfriend, because it felt just too awkward to say "um, by the way, I'm sometimes attracted to women", whereas telling people about my new exciting girlfriend seemed like a much more reasonable subject of conversation. But knowing out Queer people meant so much to me when I was confused in the first years of college, so in that sense I feel I should pay it forward by being public about my sexuality (since I don't take much risk in doing so). And that means telling people I am bi, even if it isn't terribly relevant at this particular moment of my life.

Also, thank you particularly for commenting, because in many ways you're my relationship role-model. I want relationships with as much kindness and consideration, and as little drama, as you seem to manage.

[liv]

*hug* Wow, if it meant something to you and made you feel less alone, that's totally worth embarrassing myself by being emo in public. Thank you for letting me know.

[monanotlisa]

♥

[liv]

It's not really about Bicon, everything I've heard about it suggests it would be a very supportive and welcoming environment for people in just my situation. It's much more to do with my hangups; the Bicon issue was just a way of introducing what I wanted to talk about.

Thank you for commenting with encouragement. The thing is that I think it's a bit glib to just assure myself that there will always be some people who disapprove. Very few people who have any effect on my life at all will disapprove of me being in a relationship with a man of my own age, class and culture. Even those few who do disapprove will probably do so on quite an abstract, theoretical level. In contrast, people in non-normative, including same-sex relationships, encounter disapproval all the time, from strangers who see them together in the street, from colleagues, from parts of their social circle, from at least some of their family. And it's not just in theory thinking that, for example, het relationships can never be free of the taint of patriarchy, no, it's finding people and their relationships disgusting, it's the ever-present threat of serious rejection and even violence. Those things are not equivalent, no way.

Even frank biphobia is rare compared to homophobia in general, and in most cases much less pernicious. And beyond that, there is lots of justified resentment by Queer people of people like me who may benefit from their struggle without really directly sharing it. That's part of the reason why I don't want to just lump a bunch of different things together under the catch-all of "some people disapprove".

[liv]

You very nearly talked me out of angst and into Bicon, so I reckon you're a good influence on me. And yeah, rationally, I think I'm just the sort of person Bicon was made for, and it may include some people with better Queer credentials and just generally more glamour than me, but I'm sure that won't be all the participants! Just, hangups are making me uncharacteristically shy.

[liv]

Yes, I can definitely see analogies between your situation and mine, but you have much less of a well-defined place within the Queer umbrella than I do. I'm sorry to hear that it's making you bitter, though, much sympathy.

[liv]

Yes, you're right that being bi is a separate issue from being poly. There's a bit of intersection because of the stereotype of bi people being unable to commit to fidelity and so on, but that's a minor aspect. And yes, people finding acceptance as individuals is exactly what I hope and fight for.

[liv]

Thanks for commenting. I know what you mean about avoiding organized stuff; I think that's part of my hesitation about plunging myself into the Bi and / or Queer community and scene.

I completely sympathize with the head hurting, minefieldy thing. I honestly don't think that being closeted means you're a coward; nearly everybody I know who makes that decision has a good reason for it, and you're certainly no exception.

[liv]

The point about the pretty people being the ones who get photographed is very helpful. I should have framed it that way; I think your remark is the thing that makes me emotionally believe that I can go to Bicon and not be an outcast because I can't do costumes.

As for your second point, I do know this really, the whole point of Bicon is to be welcoming to, you know, bi people, duh, and some of them are in opposite sex relationships. So it's not about my actual opinion or expectation of bicon, it's about my hangups.

[liv]

Hmm. I think if I were completely, one hundred percent straight, or just vaguely bi-curious but for all practical purposes straight, I wouldn't have this angst. I'd call myself an ally, and I might well go to Bicon cos lots of my friends are there and I like the idea of it.

[liv]

Thank you very much for commenting. I'm just always so glad to hear happy Queer stories. Yay for being an advocate in a low key way, and answering the questions of confused people, yay for having a generally accepting crowd. Maybe I'll be like you when I (finally!) grow up.

[skibbley]

I think this is all good and important thinking - thanks for sharing it.

[nanaya]

just generally more glamour than me

Nah, I think you're plenty glamorous as these things go; it's a gathering of fairly geeky people, not a retreat for supermodels, fashion designers and performance artists :-)

I wouldn't worry too hard about Queer credentials; it's not a one-upmanship exercise, it's about having the freedom to be who you are instead of who you're supposed to be. Yeah, I know plenty of Queer people forget that too, but it's still true...

Califia had a good quote about this; will try and dig it out if I can find it.

This comment exemplifies just why I like you so much

[liv]

Gender seems really unimportant compared to having someone who completely understands me and says all the right things when I'm being angsty, thank you.

Sympathy.
Thank you, I do really feel sympathized with.

can always go another year if you still want to
Of course, it's hardly an irrevocable decision. It's the deciding that's the problem, not the outcome, I think. It's not that I had a bad summer, I totally had loads of fun, it's that I'm still not joining the bi community, which I almost convinced myself I wanted to do.

surely there are many friends who go to bicon and dress normally
Of course this is the case, and yes, you're doing a good job of helping to convince me of what I already know, so thank you.

in something like the goth dress and accessories, you do look really, really sexy and glamorous
That's really sweet, thank you. It isn't less sweet because you're biased, compliments are lovely. I should probably do the goth thing more often, then I might start to feel more comfortable with it.

both seem totally valid: you don't want being queer to be the most important part of who you are, and yet, I think it undeniably applies to you
I think you're probably right, I can care about normalization and radicalism at the same time, they are types of activism that complement eachother. It's not the easiest of aims, but it's probably the right one.

you can't simultaneously avoid conforming to every stereotype in existence. It's logically impossible and not morally necessary.
This is a very good point, and I know what you mean about it being obvious when you state it like that, but hard to actually accept. Everyone has a bunch of traits, and some of them will coincidentally happen to match stereotypes for the group they belong to. I just feel I'm not being a good exemplar, either for convincing the conservative-tending straight people that I'm totally respectable and normal, or for convincing the more politicized Queer people that I'm helping them kick over the traces of damaging social expectations. But I suppose that the aim here is that bi people, just like anyone else, should be free to just be middling and unexceptional, and make some choices that are countercultural and some that are traditional. I don't have to hold myself to a higher standard just because some people are biphobic.

I may have to think about whether I come out about sexuality things
We should talk about that more *hug*. It's certainly true that if you're actually trying to seduce people, you have to come out to potential romantic interests at some point, because otherwise how would you ever communicate what you want from a relationship?

non-serious relationships, either one offs, or "every two month" things, probably don't need to be mentioned at work
Agreed; those kinds of connections aren't really anybody's business. The trouble is that I'm not very good at casual sex; I'm only really attracted to people that I'm interested in as people, and I find that sleeping with them doesn't exactly decrease the sense of intimacy and wanting them to be a major part of my life. Also, I really don't like doing the "secret girlfriend" thing. That is to say, if I have some low-level involvement, deliberately blocking it from any sort of development or commitment because I don't want it to be serious enough to have to admit to to people who may disapprove, is really quite an unpleasant way to treat someone.

being nuzzled by other people wasn't a doomed disaster of a grudging compromise we kept mostly behind each other's backs, but a glorious exuberance :)
I love this description! In fact, I love it so much, that I have put it on my profile page as a general description of the sort of life I'm trying to have. I think it applies more generally than just to seducing lots of pretty people.

[liv]

Thanks for your support; that means a lot, coming from you.

[jack]

That's an interesting point. Peter was telling me that quite a lot of people did bring along a straight partner (as well as other, more obvious bi-related but not-officially-bi people) which surprised me: I'd have thought the one thing you needed to go to bicon would be being bi :) But apparently not. If someone like me can identify with the subculture, then you have a thousand times more reason to feel part of it :)

Re: This comment exemplifies just why I like you so much

[jack]

*hugs* Thank you!

I love this description!

Thank you!

The trouble is that I'm not very good at casual sex;

Oh yes, totally. But the point is, the relationship could be quite important to you, whether it was sexual or not, without showing up on the radar of work colleagues, so it may be practical to say "I spent the weekend with my old friend X" rather than "with my bit-on-the-side X", and bring up the other aspect only if, for instance, you bring them to a work christmas dinner, or something.

Obviously the "not mentioning it" isn't ideal. One may have to make a decision about whether you're happy to talk about it ever, and if so be ready to do so, and if not, be cautious about doing it.

Now I'm not sure.

[ptc24]

Thanks.

I think the point I wanted to make is that it's easy for some of us to be so complicit in our own oppression that we don't actually get to experience any/very much direct external oppression because we don't let ourselves encounter it. I think... then I simultaneously worry that I'm a) puffing myself and saying "look at me, I'm so oppressed, come see the oppression inherent in the system" and thereby trivialising other people's problems and b) trivialising my own concerns and those of others like me by writing things like point a).

[lethargic_man]

Well it looks like your copious other commenters have already done a good job of talking you out of angsting, but can I just ask what happened to your position (of, admittedly, several years ago) that one relationship was enough work as it was; the thought of having to manage several at once was enough to give you the screaming heebie-jeebies.

[rho]

I've thought about going to Bicon in the past, and always decided against it for similar reasons though coming at it from the opposite direction. I'm about a 5 on the Kinsey scale, and have never been in any sort of a relationship with a man (legally female people with vulvas who identified as genderqueer, and legally male people with penises who identified as female, yes, but never any men) so what right do I have to call myself bisexual?

Of course, by any sane and objective measure "is sometimes attracted to both male and female people" is pretty much the only "right" that I need, but I have a habit of over-thinking things as well.

I tend to vacillate betwixt bisexual and lesbian as my self-identity as well (when I have to self-identify at all, which I mostly prefer not to) and in a way both of them feel like a betrayal. If I say I'm bisexual, isn't that the same as saying "oh, no, don't worry, I'm not one of them, I'm attracted to men too"? And if I say I'm a lesbian, isn't that really just another form of prescriptive gender essentialism, denying the possibilities of anything more than a gender binary? No and no, clearly, but rationally knowing this to be true isn't the same as being able to intrinsically believe it deep down.

I suspect that the lesson we both should be taking from this is that it's impossible to please everyone. Do bisexual people exist who would decide that you or I were not bisexual enough? Almost certainly. But are there straight people who would want to exclude you and lesbians who would want to exclude me? Almost certainly as well.

The whole point to the queer movement (to the extent it has or needs a point) is and must be to allow people the autonomy to be themselves and do as they will without having to worry that that will lead to their exclusion, be it exclusion from without or from within.

[verazea]

Firstly: Graaaaaaah. No No No. *strong emotional response at stuff in this I'll write about in a sec*
Secondly: *Sympathy* I can see where you're coming from too.

I've not been to Bicon. Hello social anxiety and a small sense of not being queer enough coupled together with not really wanting to go somewhere where lots of people go looking to get laid. That I can't afford it seems like another reason, but if I really wanted to go I could. But, looking at people that go, it's really a place where most would not would not feel uncomfortable with you being there, and not somewhere where only pretty people go. You really don't need to be outwardly Queer to go, and that's a good thing.

It's easy to dismiss me as BUG, because my major serious relationship with a woman took place while I was at university. And basically, I've dated and been involved with men since then.

Surely a BUG would be someone who no longer feels or identifies bi? If exclusively date people your own gender or if you exclusively date people another gender this does not make you any less bi, in the same way that if someone is straight but never dates anyone for some reason this does not make them less straight. The biphobic opinion your sexuality is defined by the people you go out with really annoys me. Not only is it complete rubbish but it's not even fair as the pool of possible same gender partners is much smaller the pool of opposite gender partners -- and the pool of others much smaller still -- but bi people often aren't interested in both genders equally.

I do care about potentially hurting other Queer people and accidentally making their life harder.

Just as Queer is a broad spectrum, there are different Queer events. I think this is one where one being able to pass easily is not likely to be a problem for most?

And passing is definitely not without cost. Most read me as male on the first look and those that don't correct that quite quickly. But I am not, I am sort of of Other and every time someone calls me male or a man it hurts. Sure passing is a great benefit. I have the privilege of not being targeted, but it is certainly not without silent cost to me. There is also the cost to society, of blending in with the heterogeneous privileged white normal majority and so reinforcing it. I do not seek to trivialize all those who have been abused simply because of what they are -- they certainly have it worse then I do. But I do despise the "Well I/we have it worse then them" mentality that some assume. I don't want to hurt people in some contexts by seeming all normal and happy around them. I also don't want to be told how easy I have it. I may have it easier in many ways but that's not the same as easy at all.

[shreena]

I didn't officially come out as bi until I actually had a girlfriend, because it felt just too awkward to say "um, by the way, I'm sometimes attracted to women", whereas telling people about my new exciting girlfriend seemed like a much more reasonable subject of conversation. But knowing out Queer people meant so much to me when I was confused in the first years of college, so in that sense I feel I should pay it forward by being public about my sexuality (since I don't take much risk in doing so). And that means telling people I am bi, even if it isn't terribly relevant at this particular moment of my life.

I empathise with this a lot. And I never even officially Came Out at all! I don't know why, since I'm generally prone to overthinking things, but I never really thought about the fact that I fancied women. I knew that I did and I didn't hesitate to act on it when I wanted to but I just never put much thought into whether I should come out to people or not. I realise this is strange. I somehow managed to hang out with lots of lesbians at university without even explicitly telling them, although I imagine that the odd ridiculous crush that I suffered from made it fairly obvious.. (Though, then again, maybe not, I don't think you ever noticed my huge crush on M.F. in your year at school!)

Coming back to this thread belatedly

[liv]

This makes a lot of sense to me. I would like to live in a world where Coming Out wasn't a thing, definitely, what sort of people you fancy ought to be just one of those trivial facts about your preferences. I might well still be officially closeted if I hadn't ended up in a really life-defining same sex relationship. That meant two things: firstly that there's a big important part of my life I have to be out to talk about; I could play the pronoun game, but I just find it too complicated to keep up the level of deceit involved. Secondly, I got involved in the Queer scene, and experienced for myself how isolating it is when everybody in the world assumes you're straight, and how much it mattered to me to have out role models. So in short, if things had been just a tiny bit different I would have ended up in your situation exactly.

I never noticed you had a crush on MF, no. But then I was sooo oblivious at that time that I didn't notice when I had crushes on schoolfriends, let alone being aware of what else was going on around me.

[liv]

it's a gathering of fairly geeky people, not a retreat for supermodels, fashion designers and performance artists :-)
Thing is, if it were all about fashion people, I would probably just rely on feeling smugly superior, since I'm an intellectual snob who cares about the important things in life. But there's this thing at geeky gatherings where people either overdress or underdress, and I don't feel confident with geek-sexy, nor in witty black t-shirts and scruffy jeans.

But anyway, you especially, and various other people in this thread have convinced me that it's all in my head, I shouldn't let these stupid insecurities about appearance get in the way of getting involved in the Queer community.

being scared of relationships

[liv]

You're so right. I am still scared of getting into relationships, and I angst about it a lot. I still react against the idea of the kind of poly where I'd end up as the hinge of a balanced V, that is, I'd have all the hard work of being in a relationship doubled, on top of dealing with the interactions between the two.

But that's not what I'm contemplating at the moment. If there's someone potentially interested in me who already has a primary relationship (or even several), while I also have such a relationship, then it feels much less as if that person's entire happiness depends on me. They're probably not going to expect me to move or otherwise put the relationship ahead of my job. They're unlikely to try to persuade me into having kids with them. I may be naive about this, I admit.

[liv]

Yeah, this is a big problem with bisexual meaning different things to different people, depending on their view of gender in the first place. I have friends whose gender preferences slightly straddle the line that conventional ideas place between male and female, but there isn't any word for their orientation other than "bi", even if they aren't really attracted to binary gendered men or women. azurelunatic has a good thing about how some people use "bi" to mean "exactly Kinsey 3", and some people use it to mean "anyone who isn't completely 100% straight or gay", and these groups have real difficulties communicating with eachother.

And yes, I'm very much in favour of the aim to allow people the autonomy to be themselves and do as they will without having to worry that that will lead to their exclusion. Thank you for expressing that so clearly. I suppose that in order to further that aim, I have to get over myself and my anxieties about identity, really.

belated catching up

[liv]

This is a really, really helpful comment, thank you. You're entirely right that Bicon is one of the more friendly sectors of Queer space towards people who aren't overtly, politically Queer. And very, very much right that orientation isn't dependent on whom you happen to be dating at this moment, especially with the relative numbers of available people.

Thanks for talking about being Other in terms of gender. That really fits in with what I was saying about passing, though of course it applies to you in a different way from how it applies to me. Sometimes I just want to throw up my hands and wish we could treat people as individuals, without needing to pigeonhole either gender or orientation!

[nanaya]

there's this thing at geeky gatherings where people either overdress or underdress

Well, that's true, and I think I definitely tend towards the overdressing end of the spectrum! But I don't think I really do geek-sexy, if we mean the same thing by it.

Enough about me; ISTR that when we first met, you were wearing a lovely velvet dress with ribbon lacing, which was not a million miles away from a dress I used to own (and was very fond of). What about wearing something like that? You looked great in it, and you didn't appear to be at either extreme.

[azurelunatic]

And sometimes passing puts you in a position where people who wouldn't dream of being rude to the face of a person that they could identify as Other (of whatever variety of Other one's talking about) feel as if they can be as horrible as they want, either in general about the Other, or behind the back of someone specific.

This turns into the lovely little dance where one wonders if one should out oneself to that person (who clearly feels as if they can be horrible about something that one actually is, and might change their ways upon being informed that you are ... or might not), or if one should contact whatever office attempts to make sure that people are not horrible to their co-workers, or if one should simply cut that person out of their lives entirely, without telling them why...